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Barium-144 Nucleus Is Surprisingly Pear Shaped (aps.org)
79 points by rwmj on June 27, 2016 | hide | past | favorite | 27 comments


Anyone know why people are saying this makes time travel impossible?

http://www.sciencealert.com/physicists-just-discovered-a-new...



Ok, but how does that affect, say, closed timelike curves? No need to run physics backwards for those, which it seems is really what's affected here.


Right. It starts with:

> True time-reversal symmetry would prevent certain static multipole moments from existing in nuclei.

Not "Time travel ..."


Why doesn't the entropy portion of thermodynamics have anything to say about time reversal symmetry? Or does it say that but we're not smart enough to see it yet?


My gosh, that was a great answer. Now if only I could understand any of it...


To clarify, I was saying that I as a layman cannot properly understand that answer on Reddit. My attempt at saying it with a touch humor has failed.


Θ⁻¹HΘ is a way to write a new Hamiltonian which is the “reflection” with respect to time of the original Hamiltonian H, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamiltonian_mechanics for an explanation of what the Hamiltonian is.

Θ⁻¹HΘ = H means that when you reverse time, your physics looks the same as it did before. Such a thing (time-reversal invariance) is being called “time-even”. In the same way a function f(x) would be “even” with respect to its argument if f(x) = f(–x).

The author of that comment is pointing out that if we assume the Hamiltonian is time-even, then we can’t have a particle with an electric dipole moment. This is because the contribution to the Hamiltonian from the dipole interacting with an external electric field would be time-even. That interaction can be expressed as a kind of dot product of two terms, an electric dipole operator part and an electric field part, and the action of our time-reversal operator Θ can be applied separately to each part. Since the electric field is time-even, that means the dipole itself must also be time-even.

But this can’t really work, because a solitary particle has spin but no other symmetries which could generate the electric dipole moment. The spin gets reversed if we run time backwards, a “time-odd” symmetry. So if we find a particle with a static electric dipole moment in nature, then there must be some contradiction in our assumption that the Hamiltonian was time-even.

The rest of his comment is a somewhat analogous kind of argument related to a slightly more complicated situation and slightly more complicated kind of symmetry.

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_dipole_moment#Dipole_...


Because one cannot travel through a mere a conditioned by senses concept of the mind.

Moreover, the notions of a "direction" are also inapplicable - there is no directions in a continuous process. They just continue, like radioactive decay. It is absurd to say that it goes to a direction of more decay.


Can someone explain how a nucleus can be anything other than a sphere? How do the protons and neutrons at one end of the nucleus "know" to be pointed, while the same collection of particles at the other end "know" to be rounded?


Barium-144 has an excess of Neutrons.

The Protons and Neurons that are properly paired up make a "sphere" that is nicely distributed, and the leftover neutrons are pushed to one side and make the tip of the pear.

Now you might think that mixing the extra neutrons evenly would makes things even more nicely distributed (which in an atom means: lower energy), but consider the Helium nucleus.

The nucleon binding energy of helium is very different from its neighbors: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Binding_energy_curve_-_co...

That is because pairing up the way Helium does is just so favorable. It's the same with the Barium-144 - the nucleons that can pair up do so, at very low energy, and then you have some leftovers.

I suspect that lots and lots of unstable nuclei will be found to be asymmetrical this way.

By studying exactly how asymmetrical they are we can finally find out exactly how neucleons pair up, so we can actually model the energy levels.

Once we do that we'll be able to figure where the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Island_of_stability is. Figuring that out might lead to some amazing new materials.

Even better, we'll actually start to understand neutron stars (understand what actually happens to those neutrons at those pressures), and maybe calculate the Quark degeneracy pressure - it could be that pressure is so high that black holes can not exist.


> and maybe calculate the Quark degeneracy pressure - it could be that pressure is so high that black holes can not exist

Black holes would exist, but not as point-like singularities, right? There'd still be an event horizon.


No, if they exist (if there is an event horizon) then still a point like singularity. Very high Quark degeneracy pressure would not change that.

But it's not really known though, what the inside of a black hole looks like.


It's probably just the lowest energy state. The same way marbles at the top of a pile "know" to form a peak, and those at the bottom "know" to form a wide flat base.


In that case the direction of gravity breaks the symmetry between the peak and the base. The grandparent's question is what breaks the symmetry between the big and small end of the pear.


Nothing need break the symmetry -- consider the spontaneous symmetry breaking and the "Mexican hat" potential.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spontaneous_symmetry_breaking

Any direction is as good as any other, but one will be chosen.

In this case, the ones at the big end of the pear act differently than the ones at the small end because their neighbors are different then the ones at the small end. And the mid ones behave as they do because of who their neighbors are.

The reply of colanderman seems correct, though perhaps not terribly enlightening.


I suppose, if the interactions with particles external to the nucleus are weak enough, that the nucleus could be in a quantum superposition of all/most/many orientations anyway? (Not sure whether I'm off-base here.)


Symmetry can be broken spontaneously (see the first sentence in the paper, https://arxiv.org/abs/1602.01485), if the symmetric state is not a global energy minimum. (E.g. a needle standing on its tip on a table is in a state with rotational symmetry --- however, after it has fallen on its side on the table, the symmetry is broken.) The explanation in wikipedia seems be OK: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spontaneous_symmetry_breaking



If you try to cram bunch of marbles into a sphere shape you'll rarely get perfect sphere, some will stick out of one end.


The article seems incredibly over-dramatic of a genuinely interesting study. Saying that this is evidence of it being "more distorted than theorists expected" is irresponsible from a scientific point of view.

My less-dramatic summary: Barium-144 is a short-lived isotope that was predicted to have an unusual "pear" shape. A new study suggests that it does have the shape that was predicted.


Looks more like an egg to me.


Same, but it's a poor representation of the shape.

A better example is http://www.sciencealert.com/physicists-just-discovered-a-new...


Also, saying that "things went pear shaped" has a lot more patina than saying "things went egg shaped".

(This is the crowd that brought us 'quarks' - notorious lack of 'gravitas' there ...)


"Now, researchers have confirmed that barium-144 ([Math Processing Error]) is a member of this exclusive club."

... that math processing error was really confusing until I understood its real meaning.


surprisingly not

http://vixra.org/pdf/1107.0031v1.pdf

But yes I know, a crackpots physical model... how bad it fits so well.


I'm sorry but that is not a football.




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