> What's the rates in question in London? For permies and for contracting.

Part of the trouble is that nobody knows!

However, i think that as a pretty good mostly-Java agile devopsy tech-leadish developer with about ten years' experience, i would be looking at a 70 - 80 k£/yr salary, or a 600 £/day rate.

The salary could be a lot higher somewhere like a hedge fund or Google, but when i was looking recently, those are the numbers that were in play. I was on about 70; when i asked for 80, some employers would wince but keep talking, and others would end the conversation quickly.

The day rate might be way off; it's anchored in a couple of highly anecdotal personal data points. It doesn't match the published industry average of ~450, but i assume that's weighed down by legions of grunts and juniors.

>>> I was on about 70; when i asked for 80, some employers would wince but keep talking, and others would end the conversation quickly.

Java AND DevOps AND leadership AND 10 years experience?

Seriously. That hurts to hear about companies who expect to get that sort of profile for less than 6 figures. 70k is borderline insane. What package do you have on top?

I already got that when I was less than 25... Please don't tell me I am the 0.1%

The basic standard day rate for DevOps is 500-600 from what I've seen. I don't get how the average could be 450, that's less than the absolute minimum, especially if you also have good development skills on top. Java might be slightly cheaper but not much.

Met a guy between two contracts recently who does that kind of stuff (and some others). He left his current gig to join government consulting for £1000 a day :D

> i would be looking at a 70 - 80 k£/yr salary, or a 600 £/day rate.

I think that's on point. Anyone who looks old enough, can say hello and talk about some past real world experiences will land a 500-600 consulting gig or a 70-80k job at a random company.

The big brands and the shops that pay more are more selective (including most finance). Permie = annoying interviews + skill. Consulting = network + delivering.

> The salary could be a lot higher somewhere like a hedge fund or Google

Then join them. Cheap companies are not worth applying.

I actually think that consulting is very easy to do by anyone and it's more gentle on > 30 years old devs (than SMB/startups). That's why there are so many people doing it, it's not about the money (though it helps).

I just talked to a former student of mine, who said their startup can't hire senior programmers with relevant experience in the UK, despite offering £160k per year. A colleague of mine has a new startup on the side, and he says he can't hire reliable front-end devs despite offering £70k-£80k. I also just talked to two former PhDs from my group, and both went to the US where they got offers > $200k per year, while in the UK they were topping out at ~£70k per year max.

In all cases we are talking about specialists, think writing JIT compilers, sophisticated data analysis, program verification, or scaling to millions of users.

Salaries for excellent programmers in Europe are a joke vis-a-vis the US.

Are they british? Do the UK have an immigration agreement with the USA I am not aware of?

Last I checked, Europeans need a H1B VISA to go work there and it's so hard to get it's bound to failure. Even if you get it, it prevents you to switch job and you can't negotiate and swap jobs to the top.

P.S. No place in Europe are charging $4000 for a one bedroom ;)

> 70k is borderline insane. What package do you have on top?

I had some stock options that would obviously never have been worth anything.

Can i ask what kind of companies were paying you 70k in London when you were less than 25? And to do what? And how much experience you had at that point? If you were doing generalist development on the back of a degree and four years of work experience, i'm going to cry.

> I don't get how the average could be 450, that's less than the absolute minimum

To be clear, that appears to be the average rate for Java developers, not devops. Have you ever worked in a big retail bank? Or some other huge company? You know how they're stuffed full of teams of people who couldn't code their way out of a paper bag? Most of them are contractors, and it's probably them who are billing 450.

> Then join them.

I did!

> I actually think that consulting is very easy to do by anyone and it's more gentle on > 30 years old devs

As a >30 year old dev, i got out of consulting because it was such a hard life. It's not technically difficult, but as a senior, you spend your whole time banging your head against the brick wall of client stupidity.

Whatever brings the money. If am not doing generalist development. If I write down all the specialisations I do or used to do, a tree is gonna die.

Don't compare yourself to the top and cry. There is always someone earning more. I had my time when I was always the least paid guy in the room. Arguably that's still what I feel every time I look around.

I've got a bad image of retail banks. I am fine with investment banks and other banks and non-banks (hedge funds, others) that treat their people well and can build a business out and around what I do. Retail and consumer banks are no places for programmers.

>>> It's not technically difficult, but as a senior, you spend your whole time banging your head against the brick wall of client stupidity.

Not much different from a permie. I find it a lot more tolerable when you can see daily stupidity along a daily rate. Who cares what happens. You'll be on a new contract in 3 months anyway. (That being said, I really hate contracting).