I mean, when an otherwise identical resume with the first name changed from Brad to Tyrone cuts the interview callbacks by 3x, it's hard to argue that these problems have been solved.
I've also had a boss in tech that refused to hire women engineers. And another boss that lied to the state department to get someone here on asylum (who coincidentally was the hardest worker I've met) sent back, because "Mexicans should go back to where they came from". Spoiler, the guy wasn't even Mexican, just brown.
It does when those events and the decades that followed have prevented minorities from having the opportunities to become a good engineer. This isn't about you and I not recognizing talent in front of us, it's about giving that talent a chance to stand in front of, and ideally next to, us.
>It does when those events and the decades that followed have prevented minorities from having the opportunities to become a good engineer. This isn't about you and I not recognizing talent in front of us, it's about giving that talent a chance to stand in front of, and ideally next to, us.
Oh please. For decades, in the US, there have been programs designed to attract women and minorities to engineering and tech careers. I am of the opinion* that in 2018, women or minorities who are are not in tech, are not in tech because of choices they freely made. Any remnants of discrimination are negligible compared to the advantages that have been heaped upon them.
*I'm sure many disagree with the opinion expressed above, and that's OK. I'm sure many also agree with it. But I would bet that holy hell would break loose if I were to express that opinion in a discussion forum of a FOSS project that has been co-opted by the SJW scolds. And your opinion, which I was responding to, would be permitted.
It's an opinion that makes it very hard to work with you, if I were a woman or minority. I wouldn't want you to review my code, wondering if you think I'm competent or if I'm an entitled person benefiting from unfair "advantages that have been heaped upon" me.
>It's an opinion that makes it very hard to work with you, if I were a woman or minority. I wouldn't want you to review my code, wondering if you think I'm competent or if I'm an entitled person benefiting from unfair "advantages that have been heaped upon" me.
So you're assuming because of my opinion, I would not treat you fairly?
Of course! Anyone who deviates from the SJW line is de facto a bad person! There's no need for logic and reasoning when you deal with people like me! Just cast aspersions on my character and signal your virtue to the rest of your tribe!
You've broken the HN guidelines several times in this thread, but egregiously here. You're not assuming good faith, are name-calling, and are not responding to the strongest plausible interpretation of what the other person said. Could you please read https://hackertimes.com/newsguidelines.html and abide by them?
It's bad enough that the community is as divided as it is around these issues. Users need to respect the rules for HN to survive as a place for thoughtful discussion.
I regret answering. If you're not going to engage in good faith, but instead go on some tired diatribe about tribalism, then what hope do we have for understanding each other? You claim that you want to have a discussion, but then you strawman me like that. The irony of you complaining about "tribes" while you label everyone who disagrees with you an SJW...
EDIT:
> So you're assuming because of my opinion, I would not treat you fairly?
I'm assuming because of your opinion that you might misjudge me as a token minority, underserving of my position, perhaps because you catch me on an off day, or because you judge me to be an SJW because of the way I act. You're only human, and we all are susceptible to misjudgment, stereotyping, etc. It's just the human condition.
> Anyone who deviates from the SJW line is de facto a bad person!
To be clear, I didn't respond to you because I think you're a bad person, because I don't, and I don't know you. I responded because I have some vague hope that mutual understanding can be had on the internet through discussion. But responses like this make me feel like a fool for having hope.
Special treatment of some group always (almost always, children and some other groups are treated differently and it feels OK) triggers the feeling of unfairness and raises concerns about objectivity of testing process.
> You're only human, and we all are susceptible to misjudgment, stereotyping, etc.
Yes, double-blind trials were invented to prevent an experimenter from nudging results in a desired direction. In the case of increasing diversity, the desired direction is explicitly specified and encouraged.
Someone, on their personal twitter account, made a remark that Coraline Ada Ehmke found offensive. Coraline noticed that he was a contributor to the Opal project. So Coraline opened an issue on the project, called him an ugly name, and petitioned to have him removed from the project.
I will not quietly submit to bossy bullies like Coraline Ada Ehmke, and I will defend the victims of Coraline Ada Ehmke.
You seem incapable of discussing the issues without trying to hold me accountable for people that I have nothing to do with. You talk about disliking tribalism, but you can’t discuss with me without going off topic and trying to make me accountable for people I haven’t mentioned. Do you not see how you’re behaving in a tribalistic way now?
>You seem incapable of discussing the issues without trying to hold me accountable for people that I have nothing to do with.
Hold you accountable... how? I asked if you agree or not with those actions. Or, like me, do you find them reprehensible? It's very relevant to FOSS project CoCs, which is what this post is mainly about.
>You talk about disliking tribalism,
Uh, I made reference to you signalling to your tribe, but you should not assume from that that I dislike tribalism.
>Do you not see how you’re behaving in a tribalistic way now?
Not really, but if I am, I'm not embarrassed by it.
Do you think the referenced actions of Coraline Ada Ehmke were proper in the context of an open source project? If you do, I won't "hold you accountable" for those actions, whatever that means. My purpose in bringing it into the discussion is to illustrate what these CoCs are really about. They're about defining which political opinions will be permitted to be expressed, and which ones will bring wrath down on the heads of those expressing them.
Laws were passed then, that doesn't mean culture changed over night. Someone born around 1964 is right around the age of parents in their prime development years. Did your parents have no effect on your ability to become educated that put you on track to become a developer?
Whatever the root cause, the predominance of white males (of which I am one) in tech shows that there is a lack of representation of various groups. This ought to be blindingly obvious
> Whatever the root cause, the predominance of white males (of which I am one) in tech shows that there is a lack of representation of various groups. This ought to be blindingly obvious
What I am well and truly fed up with is the implication that it is pernicious behavior on the part of white males that is responsible for this state of affairs. And that's not necessarily relevant to this particular SJW dustup, but in general it is what's implied, when it's not stated explicitly (as it often is).
I agree that that sometimes happens, and I agree that it is not okay when that happens. However, I really think we need to guard against reasoning along the lines of "sometimes people are overzealous with identity politics therefore lets oppose all attempts at dealing with injustice".
The problem with a lot of these debates is the extreme polarisation that often occurs. We need to keep minds open and not stop thinking just because some actors in the debates are jerks
> the implication that it is pernicious behavior on the part of white males that is responsible for this state of affairs.
Historically, it has been, yes. Even today, there are pockets of white males who are virulently against anyone but them having access to their little clubhouses (cf GG for one prime example.)
Not in the decades I have been observing this industry through my participation in it. In my observation, these past few decades the efforts to increase female and minority employment have far outweighed the rare instances of discrimination I've seen.
> Even today, there are pockets of white males who are virulently against anyone but them having access to their little clubhouses (cf GG for one prime example.)
If they're a "prime example", then why do I have no clue who you're talking about?
It sounds like he's talking about GamerGate. Which, since they followed the old tech idea of race and gender not even being brought up in their ranks, indicates his opinion on most matters social justice.
What's not so obvious is why that's a bad thing. Considering the fact that millions (possibly billions at this point) have been spent recruiting non-whites and non-males in tech, there's no lack of equality of opportunity here.
Monoculture doesn't foster a range of ideas. I work in games where having more women is great - we produce products that work better for more people and I find it balances out company culture
I've worked in companies where that have been predominantly white males and companies that are not - I've noticed ZERO difference in outcomes between the two.
The fact of the matter is there are more white males that pursue computer science than women, minorities, etc. That doesn't make all of us professional white males raging racists/sexists.
90% of nurses are women. Why don't these social justice warriors blow up the social web with that "injustice"?
Hell, where are the social justice warriors trying to get more women to work as plumbers, construction workers, or garbage collectors? Let's see more women working in mines, while we're at it!
This breaks the site guidelines. Could you please do a better job of following them? "Comments should get more civil and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive," and this is a divisive topic.
