It's a little like arguing about whether the rampant dry tinder in the drought is the problem or the vast numbers of tourists flicking their still burning cigarette butts into it is the problem while we stare at the ongoing conflagration.

Based on what? Their pay is surely a function of the revenue their content generates their publishers, no?

>Small newspapers are shutting down left and right.

Because the above journalists aren't sufficiently able to engage people to pay for their content.

It amounts to people providing something that few are interested in, or especially sufficiently interested to actually pay for it. How would those providers be deemed underpaid?

Sounds frivolous.

I'm not going to bother to dig up supporting links. These articles show up on HN quite regularly. I'm also increasingly seeing comments on HN about the poor quality of journalism today.

I'm only pointing out what looks to me like a blindingly obvious connection.

I spent two weeks writing a blog post that hit the front page of HN. It got more than 60k page views and 300 comments and was copied by other people. It made me not one red cent.

I find it really hard to attract Patreon supporters. I'm routinely told "get a real job," never mind that with the rise of the Gig Economy there are damn few "real jobs" with good pay and excellent benefits out there.

So I know firsthand that it takes substantial time and effort to write a good piece and it takes years of experience to get good at writing, but that writing is often de facto given away for free or sold for peanuts so some writer can eat occasionally.

I"m tired of trying to prove this to people who don't want to listen.

The TLDR: If you want actual good writing, you should be trying to figure out how to reward writers who write well. If you don't want to in any way, shape or form whatsoever (because most people on HN use ad blockers) let them get paid somehow, don't be all shocked when the writing goes to shit.

I'd happily pay for a newsfeed that had only stories that I found relevant, factual and matter-of-fact rather than vapid, sensational, emotional and/or manipulative. One more story about something Trump tweeted or something about a Kardashian and I swear I'm going to break my TV. It also really bothers me that stories I hear about through back channels (overseas media, youtube live videos, government websites) are entirely ignored by most media outlets.. their choices of what is and isn't a story is IMHO way different than what I would be willing to pay for. My money mostly stays in my pocket given the dearth of good choices but there are a few sources out there I've been happy with: AgendaFree TV, Subverse News, AllSides.com. Public news radio has also been very good, and WSJ, Reuters and AP seem to be the most sufferable of the mainstream.

I know quite a lot about a number of subjects. I would love nothing better than to spend my time providing quality content on those subjects. This has been a long-time desire of mine and it usually feels like it is going nowhere fast, though a more accurate description is perhaps "it's very painfully slow and might arrive on the twelfth of never."

I talk about me in part because I spent a whole lot of time in therapy to sort my personal crap, so my observations about people very often hit a nerve in a completely unforgivable way. Talking about me goes weird places and people think I am a narcissist ...etc...but it's usually less disastrous than if I make what seems to me a painfully obvious observation about someone else and it wasn't obvious to anyone but me and everyone is shocked and the person I've said it about was sure they had hidden their secrets well and blah blah blah. It's a case of "Let's take her out and shoot her promptly after tea."

I'm a former homemaker -- military wife and homeschooling mom -- and I was Director of Community Life for a time for The TAG Project. I raised two twice exceptional sons. I know a helluva lot about raising challenging children and I began blogging due to demand for what I knew on some email lists years ago.

I've struggled with figuring out how to translate that to a successful blog and the people who could vouch for me won't for various reasons. Some of that appears to be straight up sexism, but I can't prove that and naming names publicly of people who have actively engaged in polite character assassination would be me "behaving badly" and "making personal attacks" because all their uber polite mud slinging was in accordance with the rules and blah blah blah.

I have a serious medical condition and I've spent years getting myself healthier. This literally gets me accused of being insane and I've been thrown off of various forums where the mods told me that the people saying horribly shitty things to me in violation of the rules were fine and I was the problem. I get told "If that's true, where are the studies?" and when I can only say "This is my first-hand experience. There are no studies." it gets completely dismissed as anecdotal and no one on the planet is at all interested in what the hell I know and the entire world basically wants me to shut the fuck up entirely on the topic, which makes no sense to me whatsoever for a world that claims to want to help people like me to be healthier. There is zero curiosity at all in what I've done, what I think about those experiences, etc.

I know a lot about moderation and people tend to not want to hear that either. See above about how much time I've spent in therapy. When the truth hurts and I'm the person who spoke the truth without realizing it was some humongous freaking secret, welp, off with her head. And I also don't really understand that at all because if what is being done currently sucks, it seems to me people would welcome better information. But they mostly don't when it comes to certain topics. Instead, they would rather keep doing what they are doing now rather than hear "You could do something different from that and here are a few suggestions I have."

I've spent a whole lot of years trying to learn to talk about certain things well, things that are touchy subjects. And just this year I've had a few things do decently in terms of traffic.

But I remain stymied because I cannot fathom how people continue to think a) I don't have any knowledge worth any money at all, meanwhile I periodically get glowing praise for my forum comments in spite of actively trying to discourage such because public praise tends to go weird places socially and b) the whole "writers are producing crap" thing isn't related to the low pay for the industry.

To me, these things are very obviously interrelated. If I could spend my time focusing on doing quality work for a few websites of mine instead of scrambling to come up with enough freelance income, I think I could provide some of that quality content people claim they want.

And anytime I talk about this, it basically gets framed by other people like I'm just whining instead of people hearing "Look, if you actually want quality writing, here is a person who is capable of doing quality writing and can't make enough money from it to support themselves adequately. Here is a concrete example of this very problem and a potential opportunity to begin solving it."

But that seems to get interpreted as me "panhandling the internet" and soft begging for funds rather than me saying "I have literally spent decades trying to figure out how one can provide solid content and get enough money from that to make that their main focus during the day and I can't make it freaking work."

It's late. I'm tired. I've been saying these things for literally years until I'm blue in the face and there seems to be no path forward. People just here "The bitch wants money from me. Not my problem. Moving on." and utterly fail to hear "This person right in front of you has been wrestling with this very question for literally decades and can't find a solution. And she's smart and stuff. Maybe it's systemic and not the fault of the writers/editors/scapegoat du jour."

This comment no doubt sounds like a rant. All my efforts to follow the stated and unstated rules in life, the universe and everything just feel like a freaking straight jacket forbidding me from actually making a point to people who absolutely don't want the point made because they want their excellent writing done by slave labor and don't want that fact pointed out.

Because after all these years, I feel like if that were not the case, somehow, somewhere along the way, something would have given. Because I don't need a fuckton of money. I'm not looking to get crazy rich. I would just like to eat every day (and have a few other essentials covered) and can't manage that much.

So I think I probably need to walk away from this discussion at this time because it just feels like it makes me look bad (even though it shouldn't) and accomplishes nothing whatsoever. I've literally been saying the same things on HN for years and years and it apparently makes no difference whatsoever. I keep hearing the same rebuttals and I keep feeling like a lone voice howling into the void.

I don't think anyone disagrees with this overarching point whatsoever.

My disagreement lies in the assertion that journalists are underpaid. Their pay is a reflection of the revenue they generate for their publishers, which itself is a reflection of the engagement their content provides for that publisher to monetize through ads, subscriptions or one-off purchases.

The demand for quality journalism is now low, hence it generates little money and therefore those involved in it are rewarded little. I agree with you in that if people want quality journalism, they should pay for their content in some form. However, even if you got the entirety of the hackernews readership to pay for a subscription, you would not put a dent in the overall direction journalism is traveling in.

Another option would be to have the government subsidize outlets, as is done in the UK with the BBC, Canada with CBC, Ireland with RTE, etc etc. This effort will be at the mercy of the taxpayer and can only provide so many jobs, and due to the nature of being state controlled will be subjected to, or dismissed entirely because of, claims of bias or propaganda.

When the internet is pumping out limitless, "free" content, much of which uses manipulative behaviour to maximize engagement, mainstream outlets polarize politically and in doing so ostracize half their potential readership base, people's attention spans are continually shortening and intellectual curiosity shallowing, it's no surprise that quality will suffer hugely.

It may be fair to say that it could well be beyond rescue at this point.

But just an FYI: I maintain subscriptions to several newspapers and magazines. I'm personally more than happy to pay for the content I enjoy.

O ya, and use Linux. You wont regret it. Dont spend your valuable time developing for a closed system, if you cant open the hood, dont drive the car:)

As for your drawing app question:

1. That's a big project to start from scratch. I write quite a bit of py, and it would take me years (because I would build it on independent primatives, writing and perfecting each).

2. If you really want to take a shot at it, find a py code base that is "closest" to what you actually want to do, and modify it. Often, I gotta start modifying something to even realize _what_ I want it to do.

3. I dont recommend JS. Sure you can make real apps that run independent of the browser, but it's going to be a harder road I promise. Stick to what the scientific community uses (drop into C if necessary [it's not]) because we often just "need to get it done" and py does that beautifully.

-----------EDIT: I hit my comment limit for the night, so here is a reply to your reply:)

There is no secret handshake:) I dont know where you were, but in pro-irc enviroments, people are relatively professional. #python is for sure. Almost nobody shows up and mentions gender btw. There are communication differences that are more common between guys, so that's easier for me for example, but you really _must_ have thick skin. Stuff that sounds dismissive is often just fast or frank advice, OR your question is too vague. Lurk a bit and observe. If you dont get a response, wait and improve your question and ask again. sometimes it takes a day for me to get an answer if it's a difficult topic, or I havent figured out how to ask it in a way that makes sense to other people. Dont assume anyone knows you are a woman, and while I appreciate it when someone makes it clear, especially if they want me to take it into account as there are communication norms that are just different (for some people!) you may find it easier to just not mention it. Or just clue it with your nic. IDK. Dont get stuck on that:) If you are getting a negative vibe, dont reply in-kind.

As for freenode, here is the cliffnotes (look for a irc intro/howto and read it over).

1. find a open source irc client (I use weechat) 2. /connect irc.freenode.net 2. follow the on screen instructions to register your nic-name 4. /join #python 5. ask specific question. put some work into it. if you just want advice, say that.

yep py is short for python (my github is in my profile, I think everything there is py) Often big graphics apps (like gimp) are written in C++. I dont recommend a beginner go down that route. A nice list: https://github.com/vinta/awesome-python

If it's not FOSS, then you cant modify it and/or you cant share your modifications.

No problem:) This stuff is tough, it took me as least as long to learn it as it takes to become a good writer (I started on a Apple II in the 80's). As you get better, you learn _how_ to learn it faster. I sometimes spend a day on a single simple (in retrospect after you solve it!) problem. Learn to put it on hold and try another angle or a different problem. If I get stuck I open vi (the linux txt editor) and make a outline of what I want to be able to do.

And _really_ use Linux. You will thank yourself later. Debian is a good intro. Personally I use (and cant live without) Gentoo, but the learning curve is steeper (but worth it!).

---- EDIT #2

I havent tried these, but they look like good starts: https://pythonprogramming.net/kivy-drawing-application-tutor...

https://docs.python.org/3/library/turtle.html (I especially like this one because it's in the python standard library and looks like a fantastic way to get into the basics)

Also checkout the game frameworks in that curated list above.

It gets fun:) Stick to python3 only. I like this series: https://github.com/ubarredo/LearnPythonTheHardWay

Also youtube has endless linux/python tutorials. That's a great way to see people using it in action.

I never learned this secret handshake and have no idea where to start because I'm a woman and my first-hand experience is that "chat" environments = horrifying levels of shitty sexual harassment. So I would need more instructions than "freenode is awesome!"

find a py code base

I am assuming you mean Python. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Also, where might I look for a Python drawing app code base I might have some hope of playing with? Does it need to be FOSS?

Also thank you very much for this comment.

Edit in reply to your edit:

Thanks so much. Have noted the link to your comment.