I think I am one of the few people who enjoys all sorts of coffee.
I have had Espresso in many citys in Italy, all the hip Third Wave coffees, but I can still enjoy a Nespresso, a drip machine, Mokka, Turkish coffee, DeLonghi or Jura type coffee or Aeropress. I even find Starbucks has its own taste.
They all taste different. I just don‘t get the people who insist coffee can not be bitter and Starbucks roast is the devil.
The sneering I get from people who think there is exactly two ways one should enjoy coffee, as super tricked out Espresso, or as mild tea. Seriously.
Yes I have had „good“ coffee. Lots of it. I even had a lot of bad „good“ coffee.
I sometimes have serious nostalgia for good bad coffee and no one will take it away from me!
There's nothing wrong with the taste of Nespresso (it's a little weak for me, but that's personal preference). The reason why coffee pods are awful and need to die is the sheer, disgusting amount of pointless waste they create. Every single cup of coffee requires a small, non-degradable, hard to recycle piece of plastic. Making coffee with a normal espresso machine is so easy. You can learn how to do it in 5 minutes (not barista quality, but at least as good as Nespresso). If you think that cleaning up the mess from a coffee machine is too much work, you are just lazy.
The only benefit I can think of is that you don't need a sink nearby. But in every case where I have seen a Nespresso machine, there is a sink within at most a two minutes walk.
> The reason why coffee pods are awful and need to die is the sheer, disgusting amount of pointless waste they create.
It’s funny how people are so high and mighty about the small stuff and then let the absolutely enormous stuff pass completely. Are you this judgmental about living in a stand alone house vs an apartment in an apartment building? Taking plane trips for vacation?
Or do those bog standard—celebrated even—parts of upper middle class life get a free pass while you sneer down your nose at people that don’t pull their own espresso shots to save a few hundred ounces of plastic a year “for the environment”?
Because one is easy to eliminate, and other things are not (or occurs rarely).
Making 2 coffees twice a day is something that adds up. Same as with bottled water, you can just buy filter flask/bottle/ etc. and use tap water. Or recycling vs not bothering.
This whole argument of: 'Well you drive, or fly, or use coal power etc, so dont bother with little things' it is just cuddling of mind. Conditioning not to care as you can do nothing to change the outcome of anything. So CONSUME!
Yes those are small things but its the mindset that will make you more conscious and less egocentric in a long run.
Getting an apartment instead of a house IS easy in most places, it's just a bigger sacrifice which I think is the point. Privileged people unwilling to make sacrifices sneer at others who might actually might be doing a better job overall.
> Privileged people unwilling to make sacrifices sneer at others who might actually might be doing a better job overall.
Yes, I agree though its a bit of a straw-man.
The world would be a better place if we look inwards for things to improve, instead of outwards for confirmations how everyone else sucks.
Also:
>Getting an apartment instead of a house IS easy in most places
If you have 2 kids and you work from home, then a 2 bedroom apt will hardly be 'easy', both logistically and mentally.
The point of the apartment isn't to downsize in terms of number of bedrooms, it's more that heating and cooling something freestanding takes a lot more energy.
I don't think you got the point. The point is not to build a straw-man as an argument as I can do it too and it gets us nowhere.
>it's more that heating and cooling something freestanding takes a lot more
What about temperate climate without huge swings in temperature, plus its new house with A+ insulation and solar. So you are more green as you save on electricity.
I don't mean to say anything about your specific situation. OP was pointing out that people tend to hyperfocus on insignificant optimizations, and mentioned living situation as a big optimization that almost nobody thinks about.
Furthermore, the typical Nespresso drinker is very likely someone who has the money to fly. So it’s about ways how someone with a lot of money could still try to make an effort to reduce waste and environmental impact.
Because with literally every other coffee making method, the waste products are 100% biodegradable/compostable (coffee grounds and filters). They also cost significantly less - you can make a fantastic cup of coffee in <5 minutes for 50¢ with $50 in equipment that will last for at least a decade. Nespresso is rent-seeking and trying to upsell convenience and laziness at the expense of the earth. That behavior needs to be put down.
Most coffee beans come in non-degrading packages. It’s less waste than Nespresso, but it’s not 100% either.
I don’t think rent-seeking applies to Nespresso. Yes they make money from laziness, but it’s not rent-seeking in a parasitic way. You can stop buying Nespresso any day.
I agree with your overall point though. I have a Gaggia Classic. Running with relatively low maintenance for 6 years now. But when I’m on vacation, I actually appreciate a Nespresso machine in an Airbnb.
Those shitty little cups cost more than regular cheap-o coffee, generate more waste, many involve running incredibly hot water through cheap plastic (I’m sure that’s great for our health), and have a weaker flavor. There’s zero benefit to it.
Frankly, the cups deserve more hate. Companies sold people a clearly inferior product and people keep buying them despite them being objectively worse than any other common coffee brewing method.
Sure, there are plenty of bad things out there, like abandoned fishing nets trashing up the ocean and coal polluting our air. But you can’t get your mom to do anything about that. You can get her to buy a $5 coffee can and make something better than a disposable coffee pod.
Or course it’s on your mom—because those old people have no environmental awareness and need to be constantly educated by their ethically superior children.
Why aren’t you going after the people posting Machu Picchu and Angkor Wat selfies to insta? Not as much fun to be a scold when there are real social consequences?
If there’s one thing I hate about contemporary culture it the puritanical self righteousness.
People do complain about that. But people usually concerns themselves with the actions of people closest to them. Meeting someone and calling them an asshole about a vacation they took once 3 years ago is a different level than telling a good friend or family that they’re wasting gas or buying shitty, harmful coffee.
The one thing I hate more than anything is whataboutism that aims to stall any sort of progress. The “we can’t criticize anything because we still have another problem and only self-righteous people want to better things and appropriately handle things on a per-case basis” crowd is really just pure tedium to deal with.
I see both sides here. On the one hand, let's do what we can to reduce waste, even if it seems small. On the other hand, let's not overly focus on small things while ignoring the big ticket items: heating, A/C, transportation, diet, food waste, and a number of other things are more environmentally damaging than small pieces of plastic.
Plastic isn't ideal, especially when it gets out of our waste system and loose in the environment. However, plastic is cheap to make, convenient, clean, customizable; it's here to stay for many applications, so we'll have to do our part to use plastic wisely.
People have been living in standalone houses longer than I've been alive. People have been flying for vacation longer than I've been alive. Maybe we should work on those things, but they are not new, and (right or wrong) could even be argued to have been a measure of living standards for quite a long time.
What hasn't been around longer than I've been alive is a new way to make coffee have far more environmental impact than it used to. We're supposed to be making things better, not worse. So, yeah, I can be high and mighty about your new way to needlessly generate trash while still living in a standalone house, and not a bit of cognitive dissonance in sight.
Those things aren't new, but the scale of it is new. In particular, passenger air travel has absolutely exploded the last couple of decades. According to this [1] chart, the number of passengers have doubled in 2006. It's up by a factor 13 since 1970.
Our systemic environmental problems don't mostly come from new concepts, but from population growth and globalization.
Humans are cognitively extremely bad at comprehending (visualising) the big effects that can accrue from small things (hence the magic of compound interest). We expect big effects to come from big things.
> Making coffee with a normal espresso machine is so easy. You can learn how to do it in 5 minutes (not barista quality, but at least as good as Nespresso)
This is not correct, also keeping in mind that it doesn't exist a "normal" espresso machine - the setup is espresso machine and grinder.
I'm into espresso, and it takes a lot of effort to make consistent shots.
Independently of the quality (to remove the "snob" factor), Nespresso machines are quite consistent. So if one likes the result, they can stick with that and know what they'll get.
Beginners and/or low-end equipment, produce very inconsistent shots. There's nothing inherently wrong, but that adds a crucial dimension in the comparison.
One may prefer potentially worse but consistent espresso (=Nespresso), than potentially better but wildly inconsistent ones (=beginner+low-end semiautomatic/grinder).
You don't need a grinder, you can buy grounded coffee at the right size for espresso in supermarkets.
I call bullshit on "a lot of effort to make consistent shots". Unless you are a coffee snob, just putting the same amount of coffee everytime and using a tamper will produce an espresso that is the same than the next one.
The type of coffee you use and how much water you put is what makes an espresso cup different from the next one (again, as a regular Joe who doesn't have any specific training in coffee and is not a snob).
> You don't need a grinder, you can buy grounded coffee at the right size for espresso in supermarkets.
That's so not true and "snobbery" has nothing to do with it.
The grind size is one of the ways you have for controlling extraction pressure.
You can only tamp so hard on the coffee. If the grind is too large there's no way for you to get the pressure up to 9 bars that's usually given as the espresso range.
Your coffee will taste sour, like a low pressure moka pot would make. Such a low pressure won't be able to extract the oils that make the creme, so it will also look "flat".
Equally if your store pre-ground coffee is ground too small you won't be able to lower the pressure and you'll end up with a bitter tasting, over extracted shot because you're pulling stuff out of the beans you don't want.
Different beans will have different amounts of oil in them, even for the same brand. That oil affects water pressure too.
So there isn't one "perfect" grind size. Every bag of beans is different and needs to be adjusted to keep in the pressure range.
It's not a particularly complex process. Grind size is just a pressure control and pressure affects taste. The grinder has a setting for grind size and a setting for the amount it produces. You just dial them up or down until you get the result you want.
That's before you even consider how freshness affects taste...
This is exactly why I prefer the Nespresso, there are so many variables to control with pulling my own espresso shots and I really don't want to be bothered with any of it.
I just want a consistent, fresh, and marginally professional espresso without having to become an expert at all the above. It also goes without saying that getting all these variables dialed in, for the most part, doesn't even happen at local coffee shops. There are a few in my area, but they're all at least a 10-15 min bike ride away.
Don't listen to him. You can probably get a reusable pod that works if you want. I have perfectly fine shots, don't let someone make a mountain out of a molehill and did discourage you from ever trying.
Aye, same, overthinking it a bit. At least, overthinking it for something made at home.
I used to run a coffee shop for a little over a year, and the factors that the parent mentioned are true, but it's mostly a function of using freshly ground beans and making sure they're ground to the right consistency. We had an auto-grinder, but if we had to do it by hand it was about 20 seconds of holding down the button for a darker roast, a little longer (~25?) for the lighter roast.
The home user won't notice the difference too much, and the commercial customer won't notice it at all if you start frothing some milk, adding a little cocoa powder to the top, and putting in a ton of sugar -- which was the bulk of the drinks we sold (sugary lattes and stuff).
There is no one "right size for espresso". Even with a pressurized filter basket, you can only do so much to achieve proper extraction (i.e. getting the right amount of water through the puck in the right amount of time) without controlling the grind size.
What makes an espresso cup different from the next one is not only the beans and how much water you put through it, but also what is extracted from the beans. Even a regular Joe can tell the difference between a under-extracted sour shot and something closer to proper extraction.
Regular Joe is a lot more pragmatic than paying over $3 for a cup or $1.50 for a bit of a shot. Americano is actually a good deal, tastes better than filter, costs less, more volume than espresso shot. Diluting excess of bitterness or sourness for perceived balance, can be tuned with sugar. The saved coins can buy a cookie to go with it, so can sit in the coffee house longer, maybe meet someone new. Good job, Joe!
Every time I buy a new bag of ground coffee, I like it better than the one I just used up. That's almost certainly not because the new one is better than the old one, it's because the coffee in the old bag has gotten stale (as the article mentions). So unless I buy really small quantities of ground coffee, I'm stuck with coffee that gets stale.
That's why I bought a grinder, since the whole beans don't go stale so fast.
I depends. If you have an espresso machine with a pressurized basket it would kind of work even with too coarsly ground coffee. But coffee snobs will tell you that then you don't get proper extraction (i.e. weak taste) and that it would be more consistent but also consistently not optimal.
If you don't have a pressurized basket you really need to dial in the grind setting for each coffee, have a good grinder that doesn't make the machine choke and have a good machine that doesn't "channel", i.e. a lot of effort to make consistent shots.
Absolutely. Pressurised baskets are great when all you want is acceptable coffee with minimal effort. A lot of popular home "espresso" machines come with one for this reason. Many or most Breville (Sage) machines come with one, even the "pro" machines.
I seriously recommend anyone thinking about a pod machine consider a cheap manual machine instead. I then recommend buying fresh ground beans from a local cafe. Not only are you reducing landfill but also supporting local business.
I guess my thing is that I can never find/settle on a good manual machine plus grinder that I would describe as "cheap". I worked as a barista for a few years back in the day and while not a terribly "snobby" coffee drinker, I do miss being able to pull a decent shot and also make microfoam for latte/flat white type drinks.
The problem is that at a minimum I'd be looking at $1000-1500 for a decent grinder and machine and (at least currently) that's up in the realm of luxury items I might buy someday but can't justify right now. Even the passable all-in-one consumer machines like some of the Brevilles are up in the $800+ range and I hesitate to buy anything that expensive that is not repairable.
So instead I just buy beans roasted within the past couple of weeks, grind when needed with a cheap blade grinder, and make drip coffee with a basic machine. Once in a while I do a moka pot and whip up hot milk in a french press for a fake latte but that's usually not worth the effort. When I want an espresso or a latte I go to the cafe and buy one maybe once or twice a month.
I have never considered buying any sort of pod machine. Way too wasteful and expensive for what you get out of it.
I got a cheap manual burr grinder (JavaPresse) to replace my cheap blade grinder, and it has made an enormous difference in the quality of my daily coffee. Granted, I use a French press, so grind size matters more than with drip. But it was a simple change that improved my daily enjoyment.
There's a very good sibling answer. Something that I'd like to add to it is that temperature is another crucial factor.
Low-end machines have very fluctuating temperatures. Therefore, when one buys a machine in this range, they have to perform tricks, or accept inconsistency.
With my machine for example, I have to run two empty cups before reaching the acceptable temperature, for _every espresso_ (as it drops quickly); I'm fine with it. Machines like the Gaggia Classic require the so-called "surfing", which I've never tried.
I suspect that Nespressos have a very small group, which makes temperature more predictable and quick, for the intended use, which I guess is less frequent shots. This is speculation on my part.
Again, one can be perfectly happy with low-end machinery. There's nothing wrong; just let's be clear that consistency is not what you get with it.
There's a single parameter to consider - yourself, that is one's own tolerances and expectations.
Coffee drinking lately regained its kinds of ritual, which come with proper inventory and attributes. Mini ceremonies we create for ourselves in the name of caffeine jolt.
I once attended an Ethiopian coffee ceremony [1], a bit theatrical, but it has social function, and indeed showcases coffee as it passess from green beans to your cup. By the way, the grounds can be rebrewed twice at least (like good tea).
My first feeling was that the ceremony celebrates the coffee, but then I realized that it's really a way for a host to celebrate the guests, basically the result is not in the cup but in the preparations.
All of us coffee drinkers maintain some kind of the ceremony, for many (pre COVID19) it was standing in the morning line at whatever coffee-'temple', accepting whatever ended up in the cup with your(?) name.
It's when this cult aspect is detached, suddenly all attention is tied to the devices, consistency, origin, etc.
Nespresso do have a recycling program[0]. The recycling bags are free and can be dropped off, again for free. I suppose this might differ from country to country, but in the UK what they propose sounds pretty good?
My housemate had a "proper" coffee machine and it was ok for one cup, but it temperamental. If I packed it too tight it wouldn't work. I couldn't reliably get the same result.
It is also very hands on. Nespresso machines let me make 2 within a few minutes while I prepare breakfast. Start warming up machine, milk in frother, cup under nozzle, press start.
That they have a recycling program isn't that interesting. Nespresso creates a waste/problem, they should be ensuring the waste is minimized. Meaning, not just a recycling program (I doubt it's used much), but also do something if it appears customers are ignoring the recycling program. It feels too much like an easy excuse otherwise.
In Netherlands the industry used to also point towards largely ignored recycling programs. For some cases (plastic bottles) the government actually did something with that, then ensured it was used. Basically the measure taken by many countries, small fee which you get back as you hand it in. Handing in is the same place that you get the bottle from. This continues to work with Internet (delivery only) supermarkets; next time they arrive you can hand in the bottles + plastic delivery bags.
That's a good point. In the UK we're very poor at recycling schemes and there's little motivation other than an individual wanting to help the environment.
Maybe recycling bags could be easily weighed (as pods should have a similar weight?) and the persons account could be credited. Balancing the price/reward would be difficult, especially now as thirdparties could easily undercut with no care for the environment.
I suppose I'm glad they have a recycling program and it helps me feel like I'm not negatively contributing, but I agree its a shame that the scheme isn't more popular considering how easy it is.
To be honest, do you really think most Nespresso owners are going to do some extra recycling they have to handle themselves instead of just throwing the pods into the city collected trash? It’s a nice idea but i have hard time seeing it to work in practice.
If you're ordering coffee from the Nespresso website, just add the Recycling Collection option - it's free.
What happens is simply that, on the day you receive your order, somebody will also come and collect your bag - no need to mess with labels. If you need a bag just order it on the web - it's free with any coffee and you can get multiple ones in one go.
Otherwise, when you go buy the coffee, just bring the bag with you. Actual Nespresso shops will all accept it, popup stands might not. The last option (imho the less convenient) is to print a label then bring the bag to one of those delivery-pickup places like cornershops and petrol stations.
We recycle a bit differently, possibly because we're in the US: Nespresso sends us pre-paid UPS bags. We fill the bags with used pods, and take them by the UPS store every once in a while.
I'm in the US and I regularly use Nespresso's recycling program.
Whenever I order new coffee they ship a bag with a pre-paid label on it. I just keep it in the freezer until it's full. Then I drop it off at UPS once a month.
Well I don't own a Nespresso for that reason, so I agree. I drink too much coffee at home. I have several options, because I enjoy different kinds of coffee at different times.
However, I see a lot of Nespresso machines in hotels and it somewhat makes sense, because what else could you put there? A decent Jura would be too expensive, a drip coffee maker not "good enough" (see my post). With an espresso machine, you'd also have to provide a grinder and a barista, because no one would want to spend time learning the setup up on a trip.
We like them because you can make one or two cups without wasting a lot of coffee or water.
And unlike other brands, Nespresso pods are made of aluminum, so they can be recycled. In the US, when you order the pods or pick them up in a Nespresso shop, you get a UPS mailer bag. When you use a pod, drop it in the bag. When the bag is full, seal the bag and drop it in a UPS mailbox to recycle the pods with Nespresso. That's something I can't do with the bags from the coffee beans I get in stores here.
This article makes a big deal out of the fact that people don't recycle their pods. I'm not sure why that's Nespresso's fault. At least in the US, it's pretty damn painless.
> When you use a pod, drop it in the bag. When the bag is full, seal the bag and drop it in a UPS mailbox to recycle the pods with Nespresso.
Hmm, I'm curious about how many pods fill the bag; just wondering about the efficiency/waste of individuals mailing a small bag of aluminium potentially thousands of miles. I can't help but wonder if this system is little more than a platitude from Nespresso to make people feel like they aren't being wasteful.
(I don't mean this as an attack on your choice to use a Nespresso machine - I'm just musing about the recycling system you described)
I’ve never counted, but based on how many pods I’ve used and how many bags I’ve recycled, I’d have to guess around 100. Maybe more? I actually take my bag to the Nespresso store, so while it’s a fair point to raise about the overall efficiency of the recycling, I have to imagine the store is doing bulk shipments of pods off to the recycling plant which would help a bit.
I received my machine as a gift. I probably wouldn’t have kept it if it weren’t for their recycling program (it’s also not my main method for making coffee) - but you're right, it might just be platitudes.
It’s worth noting their recycling program also composts the used grounds.
> We like them because you can make one or two cups without wasting a lot of coffee or water.
So just like a regular espresso machine. You put espresso powder for one or two cups in the portafilter, put some water in the tank, done. Tank doesn't need to be filled completely, but you can just keep the water in there for the next espresso. No waste created, and you can even reuse the powder as fertilizer.
Exactly. Most competitors have plastic, but when there's an article criticizing capsule coffee machines, it's always about Nespresso or with a picture of Nespresso pods.
You cannot really do espresso in 5 minutes practically at home. Heat up the machine, fill water, grind beans all takes time. And you need to do clean up after. It takes 10 minutes on avg
I know it's not the same but AeroPress or Moka Pot at home- fast, tasty, strong.
Only it's difficult to serve guest because how little the container is.
> Every single cup of coffee requires a small, non-degradable, hard to recycle piece of plastic.
I'm not sure if you're just using "Nespresso" as shorthand for "pod-based coffee machine" but the unique thing about the Nespresso system is its use of aluminum (recyclable) pods.
Recycling rates may not be high enough, but that's a marketing/UX problem that can be addressed.
You are right, Nespresso and especially Krups pods are ridiculously wasteful. To put something compostable in a vessel which will take 100s of years to biodegrade feels perverse.
That said if people started to make coffee in espresso machines that would if anything be even more wasteful.
One, most espresso machines sol are the cheap machines. And they are rickety, poorly made, unrepairable and low longevity. You see lots of them at the local household waste center piled up next to other consumer electronics junk. I could see a proliferation of them being a bigger environmental nuisance than pods.
Two, a proper espresso machine takes a fair bit of time to warm up and I wouldn't drink the first shot out of the machine, so they need to be run through a few times, wasting electricity and coffee.
I can see the appeal of Nespresso. I don't personally want one, but their convenience and ingenuity is undeniable. If anything Nestle should double down on ensuring the pods are either compostable or that recycling rates improve markedly.
That, and Nespresso capsules are way overpriced. I owned a Nespresso machine years ago (got it as a present) but couldn't justify the waste. Also, you must order original Nespresso capsules either at the Nespresso shop (of which there's maybe one in every major city at best), or order it online. Maybe I'm in the minority here, but online shopping is no progress for me since it just means I have to wait at home for an unreliable delivery service when I have plenty of shops in walking distance. So when third-party capsules became available, I immediately bought those instead (while they're cheap, they're not nearly as good and varied as original Nespresso capsules, though, IMO). However, one of those third-party capsules melted/stuck in the holder and I had to peel it off using a knife. That of course ruined the machine which now would leak pressure at the place where I used the knife, so I rejoiced and got rid of the machine :)
Whilst the classic Nespresso machines have potential recycling issues, the vertuo line of machines/pods are more favourable.
I was recently given a second-hand Nespresso vertuo machine and I'm very happy with the re-use options.
There are stainless steel refillable pods as well as single-use film lids to apply to emptied pods.
I'm giving the film lids a go first as the stainless steel pods are quite pricey (around £20 each).
I'm able to re-use the pods that came with the machine, refilling with the large supply of ground coffee that I receive as gifts and would otherwise use in a cafetiere.
My stash of bagged pre-ground coffee produces excellent results in the vertuo machine with a good crema on top as good as most coffee shops that I've been to.
With some freshly-ground good quality coffee, a re-usable vertuo pod or two and a vertuo machine you can make barista-quality coffee with zero non-degradable waste.
I don't drink much coffee and a bag of ground coffee would go stale in a week. The pods have a shelf life of months if not years (and because I drink so little coffee the waste created is negligible).
Freezing doesn't keep the taste (in fact it'll pull in the weird "freezer flavors" as other stuff in your freezer offgasses) and the freeze/thaw cycle has a negative affect on the flavor profile.
If you're using a coffee machine at home, you get a sink for free as you're probably putting it in your kitchen.
If you're using it in an office, it's going to get used 50x as much, and you want a sink nearby to refill the water, empty the drip tray, and house the cleaning supplies for spills - all of which will happen 50x as often.
And clean mugs will take a trip via the sink/dishwasher anyway....
Only time I've seen coffee machines away from the sink was in cheap shared office space, where different companies shared the same kitchen but didn't share coffee supplies. People shuffling along corridors with perilously full coffee machine drip trays was a regular sight :)
> And clean mugs will take a trip via the sink/dishwasher anyway....
I’m that monster that uses the same mug every day and just give it a quick rinse. Since I finish off the mug each day, it ends up dry (inhibiting growth), and I put nearly boiling weak acid in it daily.
I only clean it good when there’s a long weekend or I’m back from holiday.
> There's nothing wrong with the taste of Nespresso (it's a little weak for me, but that's personal preference).
I suspect it's the personal preference of a lot of people. Pods typically have 5g of coffee. A typical portafilter basket holds 12..21 grams. It's not a small difference.
I had a nespresso-compatible coffee machine that also accepted its own compostable pods. Moreover there are many machines (including nespresso machines for offices) which work with pads, i.e. pressed coffee wrapped in a paper filter.
Here (the US), Nespresso ships their pods with pre-paid plastic bags for recycling. We fill the bags with our used pods, and every once in awhile drop them off at UPS. Problem solved.
Here, in Norway, the Nespresso and similar pods are aluminium so you just drop them in the metal recycling bin along with other cans and glass. No plastic involved.
I've had some instant coffee that I enjoyed, but only once I decide to think of it as a different caffeinated drink than coffee. It's tasty, so long as you add lots of sugar, but it does not taste much like a real coffee to me, besides being black and bitter.
There are horrible ones and honestly I always buy the more expensive stuff. Nescafé Gold is pretty good. Don't know if the product is called the same outside of Germany/EU (the company is Swiss I believe).
Sadly I have no better metric than expensive = good and it isn't really true for most products. There is cheap stuff that tastes really bad though. If you look closely, you can see a difference between more expensive and cheaper products, probably resulting from different production methods.
The jabocs and nescafe gold variants are what I prefer. The ones I buy are either larger granules or fine powder and light brown in color. These are better than the standard black instant coffee which is even more acidic, but it's still awful to drink without milk. I mainly make instant coffee when I can't be bothered with the french press. I have a feeling that these don't provide the same kick and that they hurt my teeth more because of the extra acidity.
I use Cafe Bustelo's instant espresso at the ratio 1tbsp per six oz. The flavor is quite toasty and bitter, but the mouthfeel is great IMHO and it's exceedingly cheap.
I'd love a proper espresso machine or even a moka pot but alas, small children.
This simply isn't good enough. Recycling doesn't work if it either isn't convenient enough or isn't part of the communal fabric - and I'd argue that the second isn't there in small-to-medium town America, not to mention that some municipalities have been caught not actually recycling their stuff supposedly destined for recycling.
I'd say at a minimum, such a product should always come with postage paid recycling envelopes.
Nespresso gives you postage-paid recycling bags which you fill and drop-off at a shipper.
> This simply isn't good enough. Recycling doesn't work if it either isn't convenient enough
I hate this attitude that one cannot be bothered to do a thing that is universally good, unless it's convenient, easy, and painless.
I am an espresso "snob", whatever that word means. I have had a lot of espresso in many places, from excellent to very bad. There's a wide range of good-enough which Nespresso consistently hit, and thus I have forsaken my quest to grind my own beans and be my own barista. Nespresso is better than many high-end coffee shops as well as fine dining establishments, surprising to me.
Some people get to focused on optimizing everything (must only drink the "best" coffee) and forget that thrre if some value in variety of quality as well.
I enjoy pizza, usually I want the heat pizza I can find. But everyone I've in a while I enjoy a pizza from Domino's as well. Yeah the quality is different, but it's not bad in the sense that it's literally inedible. It's the same reason I enjoy good burgers but also crave McDonald's every so often too. I've bought really good, hard to get beer that was $40 for a 22oz bottle, but I also like a Budweiser every so often too.
Having only the best of everything all the time is not only boring, it's expensive too!
It's a Veblen Good / conspicuous consumption thing, similar to how blindfolded wine experts can't tell the differences between $40 and $100 bottles of wine.
"Wine snobbery" for STEM nerds is craft beer and coffee snobbery.
I am of the believe that if you don't drink the bad coffee you can't appreciate the good one.
For me personally I like any type of coffee, not picky at all. I do mostly drink Turkish because that's what I can make at home. But when here I would just mix the different blends together, not with the purpose of making something special with just too have more coffee
Agreed. I love a good espresso, but enjoy most coffee. My daily home coffee is pour over with freshly ground beans. Can't really beat the flavor/price. But, I also like Starbucks and McDs coffee. If anything, they are both very consistent so you get the same cup when traveling.
Coffee, like many other things, has a lot of different connections to it than just its taste, and that's one of the best parts about it. When I visit home and I can get a cup of Tim Hortons, just walking in give me memories of high school and all the time I've spent inside one of them. Even the taste of 7/11 coffee brings back some memories of my time in Maine when I lived down the road from one.
I read some where once that, despite the quality of a cup of coffee, the thing that will make it the most memorable is the people you're with.
I am with you on that. I grew up on the good old dripper because it was the typical coffee one would drink in France, and moved on to many types of coffee, espresso, nespresso, aeropress, french press, mokka, cold brew stuff, etc. While I don't like their sweet ones, I even like the basic Starbucks americano, and their instant coffee (Via) is on par with a low to medium quality espresso in my opinion, which isn't bad for an instant coffee at all.
I'm in your boat. The tastes good and bad coffees can bring are so diverse. Every few years I even feel a sudden urge to drink a particular instant coffee (Nescafé Gold). The bitters, acids that rise to my nose, a snarky taste with a little bit of burned butter odor. Just great. It reminds me of going on holidays, of rebuilding houses when all you have is hot water and of holiday jobs as a teen. Coffee is a most sentimental drink for me.
I'm with you. I love a carefully crafted single-origin pourover. But I also have a weak spot for 7-11 coffee. Appreciation of the two is not mutually exclusive.
> In 2013, the most recent year it released figures, Nespresso’s revenues totalled $10.8bn.
> In the summer of 2020, buffeted by Covid-19, Nespresso trundles on. In a recent email, a spokesperson reported “mid single-digit growth”
This article has failed to do anything other than convince me that the Nespresso is one of the most impressive products every launched, and has room to take on the US still.
Really, I hate how "single digit growth" is somehow a failure nowadays. Millions of companies everywhere don't even grow year or year - businesses which found their niche, which employ hundreds or thousands of people and which just operate in equilibrium state where everyone goes home paid at the end of the day and it's fine. No one considers those a failure just because their valuation isn't doubling year on year.
If a company isn't growing by at least the equivalent of inflation then it's shrinking, and that can't happen for very long before it can't cover its costs.
Even when inflation is close to zero, interest on debt means that a company that isn't growing won't be able to service it's creditors forever, and it'll fail.
There are plenty of reasons why 'growth at all costs' is a stupid goal, but there does have to be some growth for a business to survive.
Well, a company in equilibrium has the option of increasing its prices inline with inflation. Which is the very definition of inflation. I don't think growth (in terms of more customers or more product sold) is required to stay in business. You just need to stay competitive in the market and keep meeting costs.
That doesn't sound right. If I'm consistently profitable and not growing. Prices rise, my inputs cost more, but I can raise my own prices, so my business remains in equilibrium.
>If a company isn't growing by at least the equivalent of inflation then it's shrinking
That depends on what exactly is growing. As long as profits are growing by more than 0%, then the company is growing, regardless of inflation. If its only revenues that are growing in the low single-digits, then still the company could be growing! Inflation is the phenomenon of prices generally increasing, but no matter what anybody tells you it is not distributed equally. Just because the overall rate of inflation is 5% does not mean that your costs have increased by 5% YoY.
No, the company just needs to have a net profit. Their market can be shrinking and, if they're able to fire people and reduce other costs, they can survive just fine.
Growth is desirable for investors, but it's not at all necessary for a company to continue operating.
You can take the Nespresso machine out of my dead cold hands. It improved my life significantly: no more ground coffee spilling all over, no more cleaning and drying the mocha every day, no more having to worry about the right amount of coffee or water, whether I’m drinking too much, why I didn’t get crema... It’s slightly more expensive than simple mocha but still dramatically cheaper than anything you find in coffee shops (outside Italy at least), and worth the peace of mind. Now they have a saas-like offering so I don’t even have to worry about how much I spend, it’s automatically budgeted and withdrawn and I just make an order every few months.
The only criticism I have is that most of their varieties are not 100% Arabica, and often it’s hard to find out if their “special editions” are. Robusta is bad for your blood pressure, but sadly it’s cheaper so it ends up in most mixes. This said, I think their last batch was almost entirely Arabica flavours so maybe they are improving. If you care, I’ve done a bit of analysis two years ago that covers all classic varieties (I really should update it) at http://blog.pythonaro.com/2018/04/nespresso-blends-comprehen...
(Oh, and fuck Vertuo. I’m happy to read it was an attempt at courting Americans, because from here it looked like just a simple money grab to raise the cost of capsules and maintain exclusivity on the format. No thanks.)
We have one of the ~$400ish red machines at home for 6 years now. It gets used maybe once a week. Every morning we grind beans, and use a French press. We have our normal coffee bean but we love to try different beans. The ritual of making the coffee in the morning is part of the joy I think. Putting the kettle on, the smell of the beans being ground, the smell from pouring the water on the grounds and stirring them. It’s a comfortable part of the morning. It’s a constant in a world that needs it now.
Are you child free? I wake up and just hope for 5 minutes of peace to enjoy a coffee where I can sit, read and drink coffee. Making coffee using a French press would take all that time. Nespresso is a quick thing and I get to enjoy a few minutes of peace before chaos.
No, but teenage now. The French press does not really take much time. Night before going to bed setup kettle and grinder. Get up and go to the kitchen, hit the button on the kettle, hit grind. Dump coffee in press. Water is done in 4 minutes. Pour on coffee, stir. Go grab a shower or the like, come back and press down and pour.
Personally I have a Sage (which is a Breville in the UK) with a built in conical burr grinder.
It grinds from beans and is a semi-automatic machine but it's so quick to use it's not really any slower than using a capsule machine but without the waste capsules.
My favourite coffee brand is Illy and that comes in an easily recyclable aluminium can, so you can avoid the little plastic coffee bags too if you're careful.
It was maybe a little more expensive than a high end Nespresso machine but not much more for a "real" coffee machine.
I have had a few low end Breville machines. The current one is $150 2nd hand model with a burr grinder that meters out an exact dose into the basket. A good hard tamp, and then the espresso shot is also metered out. Easy to steam the milk, as I have a lovely flat white. I can go from woe to go in under 3 minutes.
> When you ordered capsules, you joined the “Club”, which also meant handing over your contact information. Over time, Nespresso gained a huge database of customers it could market to, as well as a way of recording consumer preferences and buying habits. For customers, the club created the sense that you were part of a sophisticated worldwide cabal of corporate espresso lovers. When I first encountered Nespresso, as a student, around 2006, I remember feeling like I was finally part of the global elite everyone kept complaining about. “What Nespresso have done is create a lot of benign bullshit around coffee,” said Rory Sutherland. “But people enjoy the bullshit.”
There’s a lot in there from the author. It’s marketing and building an ecosystem. Surprised this doesn’t happen with other drinks like carbonated water.
Is it only me or I find marketing around "eco-friendly" not genuine and just a ploy to get you to buy their products?
Like you go to Marriott hotels, low and behold there is a sign on the bathroom towel that says "Please help save the planet" by reusing the towel. Sure it helps, but that's not the reason why they put that sign up. It is to save costs of laundry. If they really want to save the planet, how about cutting down private jets for their executives?
It never feels genuine and unless the product/service is directly contributing help to the environment - like an advertisement for a Solar panel company or a Wind Turbine brochure.
"Greenwashing efforts can range from changing the name or label of a product to evoke the natural environment on a product containing harmful chemicals to multimillion-dollar marketing campaigns portraying highly polluting energy companies as eco-friendly. Greenwashing is therefore a "mask" used to cover-up unsustainable corporate agendas and policies."
Indeed, useful point. Could there be space for a “luxury” carbonated water company that sells on things like differences in carbonation pressure or the place of origin for the gas carbonation? Would be amusing, though wonder if it might work?
I'm not sure about difference in carbonation pressure, but I did read about installed carbonation systems and at-home mineralising (saving bottles, even for still water for people that drink them) expected to be the next big thing (to about the extent of boiling water taps, I suppose) recently.
e.g. https://mitte.co/ but I'm sure there are competitors (that was the one from the article/ad-itorial)
This is neat, looks like a market that will grow. If there’s a system that builds in multiple things like tweaks carbonation, diagnoses water, mineralizes taste, that would be useful.
I’ve seen a couple comments that nespreso is wasteful. It’s worth pointing out the relatively easy to use capsule recycling and composting program. You fedex bags of used capsules and they recycle and compost then (supposedly)
Each capsule contains 5-7g of coffee (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nespresso), so that's roughly 35-50 capsules per 250g bag of ground coffee. Even if the recycling scheme was used by all consumers (highly unlikely) these things are still vastly more resource intensive than alternatives.
To be fair to Nespresso, there are some potential environmental benefits from only boiling the required quantity of water, and reduction of waste coffee (i.e. in the pot and undrunk). It's not easy to determine if these outweigh the waste of the pods themselves.
(I'm no Nespresso shill, I grind and Aeropress - I think my biggest source of waste is on power from boiling too much water)
I would vote for not creating plastic waste in the first time. This is not life saving essential product you cannot live without which you need to produce in mega quantities. What percentage of the capsules is recycled and what percentage ends up in the landfills? Is recycling not energy intensive operation? (Someone even mentioned fedexing used capsules?)
I mean single use plastic shopping bags, plates and cutlery are convenient too... why do we try to reduce them ?
Why do we falsely claim their pods are plastic? Their competitors use plastic and receive no criticism. They do aluminum and a bag drop program and are trashed
If you're looking for someone to say "Fuck Keurig too" I'm happy to oblige. We're saying there's no need to create these pods at all when regular coffee brewing doesn't produce this kind of waste. 95% of pods don't get recycled, that deserves some criticism.
I admit I did not do research before posting, my bad. Was not aware they are made from aluminum.
But it is still nonsense to create packaging for every 5 grams of product made.
At least locally Kcups from Kurig are much more common - 100% plastic. I always thought of the nespresso ones with the recycling bags as more enviro friendly.
But I also thought Apple with its long support lifetimes for products and good resale values was probably better for environment than the android junk with uncertain supply chains, but HN regularly has stories trashing apple has terrible for environment and never says anything about android so who knows.
Nespresso's machines definitely occupied a cost niche, but were too troublingly wasteful for me. Fellow addicts looking to decapsule-- but not interested in buying a 2k machine which will be killed by scale in 1 year can check out Flair (https://www.flairespresso.com/)
It makes professional grade shots, has no unnecessary waste, and has nothing to really break.
You can buy a high quality nespresso machine for about $100. I agree the capsules are wasteful, but so are lots of other things, such as bottles and cans, cardboard boxes, ziplock bags, driving a car, and flying. What's especially wasteful about nespresso capsules? It seems like another version of straws that's easy to target but doesn't really address root problems with our consume until you drop mentality.
The best set-up for someone who likes espresso is simply a no-frills prosumer espresso machine, a separate good quality grinder, a few other minor things, and some training in dialing in your process. There exist machines that literally do everything including grinding the coffee, but these yield disappointing results.
With regular descaling, backflushing, and sometimes repair or upgrades an espresso machine will easily last more than a decade.
The ones investing in 2k machines would not be using water that causes that kind of scaling, or they can easily have it descaled.
To others, if you are not familiar with espresso, avoid manual espresso machines - even with consistent top quality semi-auto machines good espresso is not easy, let alone adding even more play into it with a lever machine.
I recommend not getting a home espresso machine at all unless you are really into it. Moka pots, pour over, aeropress are all far far easier, much cheaper, and far less finicky. Save the espresso for a trip to your neighborhood cafe instead - they'll make it far better without the hassle.
| Save the espresso for a trip to your neighborhood cafe instead - they'll make it far better without the hassle.
This simply hasn't been born out by my experience making espresso at home. By spending about $7-800 on a Rancilio Silvia and a Baratza Vario, and dialing in my process a bit, I'm able to consistently pull as-good or better shots than the premium coffee places around me (LAX). Granted, you have to be detail oriented to be consistently good, but once you've figured out the variables, it's just process.
This whole experience has taught me that a multi-thousand dollar HE machine is truly only as good as the person behind the portafilter.
A baratza vario is what, ~450 USD? So you're over $1000 there.
> and dialing in my process a bit, I'm able to consistently pull as-good or better shots than the premium coffee places around me (LAX).
Man, that's sad. There are a lot of bad cafes out there - but there are many good ones around me, and I live in a midsized city.
> This whole experience has taught me that a multi-thousand dollar HE machine is truly only as good as the person behind the portafilter.
The consistency is what matters - a bad barista makes bad coffee no matter the machine. But expensive machines and grinders make more consistent coffee, period, and offer much more chance for variation with PIDs, pressure change, temperature change, etc.
Look, for us espresso afficionados, it may seem easy. But I remember my first machine - it took me a year to pull consistently good espresso shots. Perhaps our expectations are simply different.
I think it's pretty easy to get a good, consistent espresso from something like a cheap home Breville/Sage/Solis machine.
You don't really need to be very "into it" for that. Just buy good beans and adjust the grinder as per the instructions and feedback either from the timer or pressure gauge.
They're just a few hundred bucks for a decent single boiler machine.
Too many cafes just service customers wanting milk based coffee these days to really care about espresso drinking customers. IMHO that's why they have these weird "espresso" roasts which are really just over-roasted or overly acidic (to my pallet) "green" roasts.
Just get a decent medium roast, a conical burr grinder (can be built into the machine) and you're good to go.
> But Moka isn't espresso and neither is Aeropress.
It isn't - but what most people want is coffee. They think they want espresso - until they realize how expensive and truly difficult it is to dial in.
> You don't really need to be very "into it" for that. Just buy good beans and adjust the grinder as per the instructions and feedback either from the timer or pressure gauge.
Which grinder? Most grinders don't properly grind for espresso - you need a solid burr grinder specifically for espresso to get consistent results. You're starting at $400.
Which Cafe's are you guys going to? So many great espresso options in my city (A mid-sized city). I highly doubt you can't find good espresso in any major city.
It's a great entry level espresso machine for sure, but the grinder is just OK, and is conical, also it is a heat-exchanger system which isn't good for making a lot of shots compared to a dual boiler.
I think this is much less true now than it was 10 years ago.
On the positive side, capsule-based espresso machines do deliver consistent, good quality coffee at home, better than you would get with a consumer espresso machine using pre-ground coffee that you keep in a vat for a couple of weeks.
On the negative side, I am often disappointed by the quality of espresso in (Italian) coffee shops. It used to be that the quality of coffee was paramount for a coffee shop, and a good barista either learned how to get good coffee quickly or went home; now it seems this is perceived as a much less important part of the trade, and you regularly get restaurant-quality (as in very mediocre) coffee in coffee shops. Not sure if Nespresso played a role in this too, as less people are walking to a shop to get their coffee.
(italian here) completely agree. It's not very easy to find a coffee shop where the espresso doesn't taste burnt. I have the feeling the baristas have good technique, but the machines don't get cleaned / serviced enough.
Or maybe it's just me, trying more and more different coffee places around europe.
> Or maybe it's just me, trying more and more different coffee places around europe.
There are some truly great coffee experiences in the US and Australia too - really stretching boundaries, or doing the classic style, much better than in Italy. It seems that Italy has been less innovative in this space - probably because it is "Just coffee" in the way drip is in the US - it is more functional, which is sad, because truly great espresso is a treat.
> It used to be that the quality of coffee was paramount for a coffee shop
Italian cities used to be "large towns", where people lived and talked to each other - which meant a low-quality bar would whither and die while good ones thrived, since word of mouth and time availability would allow people to be selective.
These areas are now increasingly adopting suburban models, forced by growth and new ways of life. People commute to work, get coffee quickly from the closest bar or from vending machines inside their offices and capannoni, then go back to the 'burbs. There is rarely time to be selective and go "da quello che lo fa buono".
Also, in my experience, a lot of bars now make money (and their name) on the 7pm aperitivo rather than on espresso.
Damn, has the quality really gone down this much in the last decade? :(
I haven't been there for, well more than a decade, but coming from Vienna, one of the greatest things when visiting Italy (and what I missed most when I was back home) was that you usually got good espresso even in the smallest shack in the middle of nowhere.
> avoid manual espresso machines - even with consistent top quality semi-auto machines good espresso is not easy
I was always able to get something I enjoyed drinking out of an entry level, single boiler, home espresso machine. It was also fun and meditative learning the skill and doing the routine.
I'd take a less than perfect home espresso over just endless other brewed methods. I love an occasional pour-over, but not every day.
Everyone always says to avoid it, and that's true if you can't envisage doing it a couple of times a day (in which case, the cost and kitchen workspace requirements make it silly), but personally, I'd take an 80% espresso at home over not.
You are like me, espresso is worth it to us. But to many it is not. The space, cost, difficulty to achieve good coffee...most people just want their coffee.
True, but if you're ok with an 70-80% good espresso, it's much more attainable at £200 for a cheapy machine and entry level burr grinder than some comments imply.
It might be more worth it to someone to enter at this price point than having to pay for semi-pro gear as the "you can't get good espresso at home" comments suggest.
I just don't want people who might want an alright drink at home to be put off, you can get ok results at home with cheap equipment. It won't be as good as what you can get with a GS/3 and a Sette, but won't be too bad.
> it's much more attainable at £200 for a cheapy machine and entry level burr grinder than some comments imply.
The number one complaint I get from new hobbyists is "some shots are amazing and some aren't, why?" It's almost always using a stepped burr grinder, like the Baratza encore, for espresso. It just doesn't produce consistent enough grinds and because it's stepped sometimes it will be impossible to dial in.
> I just don't want people who might want an alright drink at home to be put off, you can get ok results at home with cheap equipment. It won't be as good as what you can get with a GS/3 and a Sette, but won't be too bad.
The problem is the consistency - you'll have more bad shots than good. I always tell people get a cheaper machine and a better grinder and you'll be better of for it.
I don't want to turn anyone off either. But I know quite a few people who have went down the rabbit whole to be upset.
Fair points, and I think we're arguing around a few percentage points of anecdata on either end.
> you'll have more bad shots than good
For me, using a basic machine and a stepped burr grinder I had substantially more "ok" and "good" shots than "bad" ones. I guess it depends on your tolerance, but whilst it might not have been absolutely consistent, it was well within an acceptable percentage of good.
My partner and I have both worked as baristas in Melbourne, Australia (where the quality expectation is high) and have experience with all manner of 20,000 dollar espresso machines.
We still swear by our Moka pot for home coffee. It's so much less finicky and combined with a hand-grinder is ridiculously portable. Easy to throw into a backpack when you're travelling!
This sounds a bit too negative to me; probably biased as I am because I have a Cafelat Robot manual machine, but still: making an espresso which is of the same rich taste and quality as a 5k+ machine with said manual machine is not really that hard or very finicky (imo). Grind, put in basket, boil water and in the meantime level coffee in basket and put metal screen on top, once water boils pour in basket, then make the espresso. Ok it's a process, but apart from there being few more steps than filter/French/moka/... and requiring some short physical activity it doesn't take that long. I admit that with every new bean I try it takes one or 2 suboptimal cups to tune grind setting but from then on it's spot on.
> Grind, put in basket, boil water and in the meantime level coffee in basket and put metal screen on top, once water boils pour in basket, then make the espresso.
What grind setting? Temperature fluctuations matter - too hot and the coffee tastes burnt. Pressure changes the profile. The key to good espresso is consistency - for someone who is using a manual, typically they have experience with espresso. They think surely it is easy, the way a math PHD thinks calculus is easy.
But it isn't that easy - and once you realize you need a good grinder and not a baratza encore, you'll see the cost further increase.
Also, manuals lack a steam wand which is a real downside.
Apart from drinking it, I had zero experience with Espresso before getting the machine. Yes grind setting matters (though it would make no sense for me to tell you what grind setting I use because it's an arbitrary number, specific to the brand/type and sometimes even unique to the grinder), and temperature, and pressure, and amount of coffee. But from day 1 I could produce consistent shots by keeping those variables the same in between shots which isn't rocket science so I still think your comparision with a PHD is a bridge too far, it's really not that hard. Ok I'm a handy engineering type, but if you read on forums it's pretty clear: people without those skills also manage to produce consistent shots. You could blame that on confirmation bias, but: have you ever tried a manual machine yourself and got a decent espresso out of it?
you'll see the cost further increase
Of course. But making consistent espresso without a decent grinder, now that's hard, so you know on beforehand it's in the price. And a grinder lasts years or decades and it's pretty likely a decent manual machine does so as well.
Also, manuals lack a steam wand which is a real downside.
There is no way for me to tell if your espresso is good, or not. It might be good enough for you and for you that is great - but don't let your survivorship bias be an argument for "it's easy anyone can do it." That was the point.
> but: have you ever tried a manual machine yourself and got a decent espresso out of it?
You can certainly get good espresso out of it - that isn't my point. my point is, it isn't as easy as people think - and you far overestimate based on hobbyists on coffee forums (of course they produce good shots, they're hobbyists) and people who just want coffee.
> Only if you want it, which I don't.
Well of course - but that is a downside that would turn off a lot of people.
Agreed, espresso is not easy. However, I'd say for anyone who has been interested in the varieties of ways to make coffee, it is worth trying out. I spent probably $700 buying a decent pre-owned grinder and semi-automatic a few years ago and haven't looked back. After a few months work, I could easily make a better espresso drink (maybe not the perfect double-shot) than many of the local coffee shops around Boston. You'll impress your spouse and your guests too.
Anyway, I agree it's tricky and not for everyone ... just came here to tell others it might be worth a try. I'm really glad I went for it.
I don't want to discourage anyone - just want to inform of the true commitment it is, in cost, space, and patience (at times).
It truly is worth it if you really value good espresso and like espresso based drinks. But if you're not going to use it every day, it probably isn't worth it.
James Hoffmann is a great resource for anything coffee and was going to recommend him as well.
I think this, from his book, The World Atlas of Coffee, is very telling:
> "Making espresso is both incredibly frustrating and also very rewarding. I must offer a word of caution here: don't invest in an espresso machine unless you want a new hobby. The fantasy of whipping up a couple of delicious cappuccinos...is a very long way away from the work involved in preparing the drinks."
This looks nice and I bet with a little bit of experience you can make a great coffee. It's not as convenient as capsules though. The capsule machines just takes two seconds to pop in a capsule and once you press the button it's all automatic.
I find it makes better espresso than a 2k automatic machine. A typical electric kettle next to it does the trick, takes the same amount of time and is easy to fill.
It absolutely is a lil messier and more work, but there's something to the ritual of it.
The main problem with home espresso is not the machine. Professional machines are expensive because they are specced to make shots in quick succession and also handle a lot of shots before requiring service, a machine for a couple shots per day and 5+ years life can be made for couple hundred bucks or less.
The grind is the problem that has not been solved yet. You need uniform and adjustable grind size and there is no cheap way to make a mill for that. Entry level espresso grinders are starting with hand-cranked ones at $200+, a decent electric one will be at least $500 and the good one will be $1000+. Just the replacement burrs for mine are $250 and these are not some one-off hipster burrs, they are mass-produced for commercial machines. Making precise shapes out of hard steel is very expensive.
So there are essentially two solutions for at home espresso-like drink: various pods (ESE is apparently from 70s and was designed for commercial use, I imagine very light one) and machines with a pressure valve on the exit from the portafilter (essentially all machines you can buy in department stores), those take pre-ground coffee and use the exit valve to create espresso-like "crema". It's not espresso because there is no noticeable pressure difference over and under the grounds and espresso needs the layer of coffee to provide enough resistance to get to 7-9 bars on top of it. I think some pod systems could be more like espresso, at least in principle.
Yes, for home use you don't need to replace burrs often. However, you need a pair of burrs to make a grinder and the grinder cannot be cheaper than the burrs.
Just curious, how is this different from a Bialetti apart from the design? I'm looking on the website and can't seem to find a description of how it produces pressure and how much.
A real espresso machine produces 8-9 bars of pressure for extraction, and a Bialetti is about 2 bars, so it's not technically espresso.
Kamira works at 3 bars. It can make one or two espresso at the same time, but no more than that. The design is the opposite of a Bialetti's Moka, where the water is pouring into the coffee from the bottom. On a Kamira, the water is coming from the top, preserving the oils and the cream to being burnt.
It's also very quick, you can have your cup of coffee within a couple dozen of seconds. Not very hot in this case, but still very tasteful.
Recycling should be a last resort, and it's a marketing effort by Nespresso to make them seem cleaner than they are. In reality, they sell small dose (5g) coffee in plastic lined aluminium, in non-recyclable coated cardboard.
Despite their claims of how green they are, only 30% of their pods are recycled [0]
This seems to be such a mean take as to almost feel disingenuous — the low recycling figure is down to consumers not returning pods. I do return pods, so presumably nearly 100% of the pods I use are recycled. Cardboard is biodegradeable. I’m unsure why you feel the need to point out the pods are plastic lined.
If customers aren't returning pods, what are they doing with them?
Cardboard is biodegradable, but waxed cardboard is lined with plastic meaning it needs to be handled separately, and if your recycling center doesn't handle it, it goes in the trash where it doesn't biodegrade because it's coated in plastic.
The reason the plastic lined pods are important is because it means you can't just chuck them in your household recycling, they have to be sent back to Nespresso. Anyone who doesn't send them back to Nespresso is throwing them in the trash, or throwing them in household recycling, where they're separated from and put in regular waste.
I like the concept of Nespresso but as others have said the waste is the problem. You have to wonder though it seems like a simple problem to solve. In my region a local businessman used potato starch to make "paper" plates. If Nespresso could make biodegradable pod cases that would solve the waste problem.
This article is timely for me I've only just discovered how to make great coffee. I've had a French press and a cheap coffee bean grinder for decades. With a little knowledge I finally made a really good cup of coffee. Nabob beans $4 and a few minutes makes great coffee. It's so great that I went from milky lattes and double-doubles to drinking it black. It's amazing how much a tiny bit of milk or sugar muffles the taste great coffee.
30g coffee beans freshly ground, 450g water, 5 minute brew. It's so simple with a French press no filters no electricity no pressurized steam.
As a french person, I wasn't aware of what was a "French press".
With the help of Google I've seen that I perfectly know what it is, but we don't call it that way here and furthermore it's not a popular way of making coffee.
Got to New York for the first time, had awful jet lag, found a place for breakfast at 5:30 in the morning. Asked for Americano coffee. The whole diner made big eyes, like "what do you mean?!".
I spent a solid week looking for one in Martinique. I was finally told that they are on occasion refereed to as Italian Presses, but am still unsure if this was true.
As much as I hate these pods, I think something like this tech could be used to bring profits from coffee closer to coffee growers. There is a ridiculous amount of middle men in between growers and drinkers. If you can get a factory that can make a product that stays fresh when shipped globally, close to where the coffee is grown. I think some Dutch company was doing this in Kenya.
Informative article! I'm not a coffee drinker, and I never even heard of Nespresso until the George Clooney ads started in the US (which according to the article was in 2015). I've been under the impression that Nespresso was an upscale rip-off of Keurig; didn't know it had been around since 1986!
I have a Nespresso machine and TBH, being able to have a quick ristretto or two literally inside a minute before flying out the door in the morning (pre-COVID19!) was nice -- yet terribly wasteful with the pods.
Usually, it's drop coffee ... in fact my 10 year old $35 Mr. Coffee machine broke recently and I had to (shock horror) resort to a cafetière & kettle (the $30 Mr. Coffee burr-grinder thankfully still worked!). You know what? It's fantastic, 4 minutes and push the plunger. Great tasting coffee ... maybe the Mr. Coffee stays dead. In either case, at least the only environmental impact is bio-degradable coffee grounds (maybe paper filter) and energy to heat water (and grind coffee!).
Some scientists brewing herbs for research found Nespresso machines to be almost perfectly efficient.
In my work with residential maintenance I find Nespresso machines extremely common but also frequently broken. They are not easy or cheap to repair so often there is an upgraded unit which also breaks. This raises significant issues with durability and design for disassembly. Going for cheap with a high end product may end up cursing the line over time. What I find enduring are the older type of Cuisinart brewers which are made of relatively robust components that are easy to replace. They are nowhere near as good but endure actual use much better.
> The Nespresso system made every customer feel like a connoisseur: you had to make a choice every time you put a capsule in the machine, even if it was just between black or purple.
Ironically this is what turned me off. After borrowing a Nespresso machine from my brother and buying ~50 different capsules to try out I got stuck in analysis paralysis and decided to go back to my trusted Bialetti moka.
If anyone's curious out of all the variants I've tasted my favourite were two of the cheapest off brands, Kimbo Armonia and Starbucks Blonde - the rest just felt either too "fruity" or too "acidic" for my taste.
The Starbucks Nespresso capsules are actually made by Nespresso, IIRC -- and ironically they're so far the only "third party" brand that I've liked. (Peet's Nespresso capsules aren't as good and they're actually more expensive than the first party ones, and some cheaper ones I got at Bed, Bath & Beyond whose name escapes me were just terrible.)
Since there seems to be a lot of hate for the Nespresso, I'll chime in:
I currently have a Nespresso, Aeropress, V60, a few Moka pots, and probably a couple other devices I've forgotten about.
The Nespresso is super convenient and not bad tasting, but I put sugar in my espresso - a grave sin according to coffee snobs in America - so ymmv.
Sometimes I want a shot of coffee but don't want to wait for the Moka pot. Yes a Moka pot is convenient - versus an actual espresso machine - but it's lightyears away from the Nespresso in that respect.
I used to have a pod machine, and just found it didn't make very good coffee. It didn't really taste like espresso. In fact, it didn't taste very good at all.
After that, I started using a french press, which was nice, but I like espresso more, and so I got a Sage Barista Express. Great machine, no plastic waste, once you learn to use it you can create coffeeshop-quality drinks at home for very little money–plus you can experiment with different beans.
The difference between a proper espresso and pods is huge.
> Nespresso’s getting close to saturation point, and there’s lots of competition
I would love to give a shot to aforementioned competitors, which would offer comparable coffee quality, equipment price, fully automated brewing process and variety of blends within walking distance in any major city on the planet. Nice boutique-style retail store with competent personnel would be appreciated.
Since most patents expired, 3rd party brands started manufacturing compatible capsules in aluminum (plastic copies have existed for a longer time, but Nespresso fights that).
The fact you need to go to a Nespresso shop and/or order online is actually fairly annoying. Most people want to buy coffee alongside their groceries. That's probably biggest reason behind the Starbucks partnership.
Except it's like printers, Nestlé is losing money on most Nespresso machines, so if users start buying significantly fewer original capsules it'll threaten the ecosystem.
I eat and drink pretty well. Expensive wines, organic food, barista made coffee, I go (went) to Michelin restaurants, drink good whiskey, I enjoy a good barista made coffee and few things are as nice as getting it in a nice café. I've also had espresso machines and done the whole thing proper.
These days I just have a Nespresso machine which makes great great coffee and if I run out i just drink instacoffee. Once in a blue moon I will have coffee beans lying around and I will make coffee press.
There are coffee puritans out there but they are just not the majority. Nespresso coffee with the right machine and the right flavour is just as good as any barista made coffee.
And with regards to waste, Nespresso offers free recycle bags if people want to be environmentally friendly their is nothing to hinder them (my guess is that most don't really care)
Nespresso offers a great product, great service I don't think there is any risk of them going out of business anytime soon.
They were also slightly over-egging it with 'coffee revolution'; it's a slightly different way of making coffee.
I work for a company too frugal to buy an espresso machine and Nespresso is perfect for me at work. Cheaper and quicker than the cafe downstairs, decent taste, and we recycle into a bag and drop them off at the local Nespresso store. It's not a revolution though.
Having tried many machines and manual ways of making coffee, is there a real difference between says a Nespresso, Mokka, or a top-of-the-line Jura? I mean, given the same beans etc, is a Jura noticeably better tasting?
I don't remember drinking a comparable coffee from a fully automatic machine. Also keep in mind that the top of line Jura has two boilers, which make it twice as expensive, but not necessarily better. I suppose that they're generally targeted to shops; I've seen it only once or twice in a consumer context.
There is a potentially significant difference between a Nespresso and an automatic machine, which is qualitative and adhoc grinding. Producing "nespressos" is fully vertically integrated. They have control over the coffee beans, the grinding process (which can potentially be high quality), and the machine. I doubt that a fully automatic sports a high-quality grinder (I guess that most, if not all, don't have an acceptable quality one).
Regarding moka, there's no comparison. It makes a watery coffee. It's very popular because it's the cheap and easy way to make an "espresso".
I always thought Keurig was the first to come up with using the pods to hold the ground coffee but it seems based on this article that it was actually Nestle. Why did Keurig become the default standard in the US?
This is talked about in the article. The Nespresso didn't quite catch on in the US like it did in europe. Americans generally prefer to drink larger quantities of coffee, often in the car. This does not lend itself well to espresso. As such, K-cups got much more traction
Yup, plus the K-Cup machine is higher profit and lower cost to build than a Nespresso machine. The BoM for Keurig is incredibly low for the selling price, something like $12 on a $130 machine. They flipped the razor and blades model and managed to make massive profit on both the razor and blades. I'm starting to see evidence that Keurig is struggling now however, They have launched much cheaper models and are all over the place looking for hits including ground coffee. I think they realized that they are known for 'meh' coffee and know that that brand wont get them to where they want to be next.
Keurigs generally make brewed coffee (i.e. the water is not under pressure), which is overall more popular than espresso in the US, which is what Nespresso makes.
Every cup of coffee also produces one piece of plastic garbage. This is one of the most wasteful machines and anyone that cares about the environment should throw that machine in the garbage.
Capsules are wasteful and expensive and you have no idea what's in them.
No capsules for my home use thank you.
I considered getting a fancy expresso machine that grinds the coffee for you in place at the press of a button, but I decided against it because I'm likely to overdose on coffee with one.
Nope. Even from my coffee snob friends, only one has had a capsule machine and abandoned it anyway. And he's the kind that owns 3 different french presses to start with.
Is that in Europe? I mean, I don't know anyone that does filter coffee in Europe to be honest. Not trying to be snobby, it's just different habits I guess (e.g. a watery black coffee is known as "Americano" in most places in Europe I've been)
I can't comment on the actual numbers for Australia, but in the UK at least, there are online shops like hasbean that will roast & grind for you for roughly the cost of a bag of premium supermarket coffee. It'll save you the outlay of a grinder (and it's ground with a grinder that will be far more consistent than what you buy).
But freshly ground coffee is so much different to pre-ground. Once ground, it starts oxidising immediately, so will start to affect the taste pretty quickly.
Apart from being fresher, the grind is also one of the ways you control the pressure you extract at in an espresso machine.
Depending on the machine you can either time the shots, use a pressure gauge or just look at the flow coming out and verify by taste.
It's not much more complicated than if the pressure is too low the shot will taste sour. So you adjust the grinder to grind larger.
If it's too low the shot will be overly bitter. So then you grind smaller.
I'm told the ideal pressure is 9 bar but really taste is the real test.
Once you have the grinder dialed in it will probably be fine for the entire batch of beans and only need tweaking when the next batch comes in. (Although if you may have to tweak it as the bag ages.)
My experience is 3-4 day old ground coffee was still notably better tasting than freshly ground coffee with the hunk of a grinder I used to use. It obviously depends on how much you drink (our house goes through about 1 bag per week), but as a starting point it's likely to be better than pre ground supermarket coffee, and more accessible than a decent burr grinder.
Telling someone who uses a Nespresso to shell out 50 bucks for a Hario skerton, and spend a couple of minutes cranking the hand grinder is probably not going to be the most successful conversion path!
I have a Nespresso, but the novelty of home espresso quickly wore off. They also do regular coffee pods for the machine I have, but I ended up going back to the Keurig for its easier to find consumables.
At least in my experience, Nespresso makes decent -- not amazing, but decent -- espresso pretty consistently, but a Keurig rarely makes a decent cup of brewed coffee. The Nespresso is brewing pretty much the same way a non-capsule espresso machine would, but the Keurig is not brewing the same way a non-capsule coffee brewer would.
After using my Nespresso exclusively for about 2 years, I've recently added a Keurig to the mix. I agree with you... It is convenient to order Nespresso pods, but I'd rather pick up pods at the grocery store. Additionally, I mistakenly purchased a Nespresso Vertuo, which has a much more limited selection of pods compared to the original Nespresso pod design. The Keurig has so many pods, my local grocery store has a huge section of Keurig options.
Pre-ground coffee is limited in quality, as it'll always be stale when it goes into a mass production process as used by Nespresso. You need to be grinding only <15 minutes before brewing to get the best flavour.
Likewise, you really want to be using beans within 2 weeks of them being roasted, which will never happen either.
Nespresso suffers from old stale coffee, plus each pod contains nowhere near enough coffee grounds to make even a vaguely strong cup of coffee.
Separate to all the waste issues, the coffee is weak and tasteless and to be honest, I'd prefer a high end instant coffee vs. Nespresso any day, as I can at least make it stronger.
To get nice coffee you need to start with fresh beans, and use enough of them. I find a quick filter coffee to be much preferable 100% of the time.
Unpopular opinion: the snobbery in the first two sentences is misdirected. Those absolutely are not requirements for most coffee drinkers. I mean, I do the food snob thing for a lot of items, but coffee just barely qualifies relative to areas where there is genuine variability (tea, cheese or wine, say). For 95%+ of drinkers, coffee is coffee and the only really signficant distinguishing qualities are the roast (which persists on a shelf) and brew strength.
Note that I'm not saying that there aren't coffee snobs who feel strongly about this. I'm saying that the nature of the product is that there will never be enough of them to matter.
At least this produces far, far less waste than Nespresso-style. And, depending on exactly how they process it, may end up 'fresher' than coffee brewed from old ground coffee.
Fair, although moka pot coffee is indeed "espresso-like" more than espresso. They don't have the pressure to brew espresso the same way an actual espresso machine does. I think they make great coffee, particularly for Cuban-style cafe con leche, although nowadays I'd probably do that with my Aeropress because it's faster and can do a strong, espresso-like coffee pretty well. But it's still not espresso. :)
A Nespresso machine certainly isn't the pinnacle of coffee perfection -- I've just found that it makes a decent and very consistent espresso, lungo or Americano for me. There are times, particularly in the evening, when I just don't want to mess around with grinding and brewing, and I'd much rather have a Nespresso coffee drink than a Keurig one.
That being said, I was under the impression moka pots require a lot of cleanup. For drip, there's a lot of competition, notably the AeroPress, that's only slightly less convenient than the Mr. Coffee machine. But I'm not aware of a product like that for espresso-like drinks.
I think I'll gently disagree with Wirecutter here, as much as I like them. The Nespresso machine may make thin espresso, but it's still espresso -- it brews its espresso the same way a non-capsule machine does.
Moka pots are a little fiddly to clean and, well, a little fiddly in general, I think. I use an Aeropress for brewing most of the time because it's less so. You can make, hmm, "espresso-ish" coffee with it -- it's also actually brewing coffee for a shorter amount of time than usual with greater than usual pressure, when you think about it! -- but I'm generally aiming to get an 8 or 12 ounce cup of normal brewed coffee.
Moka pots only need a deep clean once a week to once every two weeks and even then it's mostly wiping off the oil from the beans without any soap. Otherwise you just rinse with hot water.
They are typically aluminum so it's not like you have to worry about almost anything growing on/in them
People who prefer brewed coffee over the Nespresso are coffee snobs. Those who prefer Nespresso over it’s cheaper competitors are... just savvy consumers, I presume
I have had Espresso in many citys in Italy, all the hip Third Wave coffees, but I can still enjoy a Nespresso, a drip machine, Mokka, Turkish coffee, DeLonghi or Jura type coffee or Aeropress. I even find Starbucks has its own taste.
They all taste different. I just don‘t get the people who insist coffee can not be bitter and Starbucks roast is the devil.
The sneering I get from people who think there is exactly two ways one should enjoy coffee, as super tricked out Espresso, or as mild tea. Seriously.
Yes I have had „good“ coffee. Lots of it. I even had a lot of bad „good“ coffee.
I sometimes have serious nostalgia for good bad coffee and no one will take it away from me!