I stopped hanging out in /r/DIY before /r/DIWHY became a thing, because it was turning into a roast of people risking life, limb, and property by doing something structurally unsound. There's educating people on building standards, and then there's just bagging on people.
In an attempt to be more of the former than the latter, if the string or especially that strut sheer off of their mounts, that whole contraption is slamming down. Your groin is pretty well protected, but you can still catch that upper bit in the teeth. Figure out how far stuff should move and add stops to keep it from going a hair farther. Replace most of the nails with bolts (beware of end grain, which can split, in which case nail/bolt makes little difference).
Aside: My personal favorite trick that doesn't get used enough is eddy currents. If something has to move easily but not too quickly, a piece of aluminum, copper (or I think non-ferrous steel?) and a rare earth magnet will decrease the terminal velocity of the moving bit. You still take a hit, but you might walk away from it.
Lord, thank you for this comment. The structure looks like a death trap and the physics of its construction make very little sense. Be careful everybody!
Author here, I understand your reaction, and I think I didn't put enough context on the safety part. I recommend to anyone to do basic carpentry stuff, but here we have a more complex system I do not recommend someone without experience trying to. replicate it. I have been building that kind of stuff for about 15 years. No nails only bolts have been used as you advise, the structure is very solid compared to the weight it has to handle.
I looked again to see if I was imagining things. The first picture I see is all screws and nails? The bits above as well as behind the chair are the parts that concern me. Lots of pieces that can shear off and drop that arm in your lap. One of those cleats has a screw going in at a very acute angle. for instance.
I'm going to quibble with the other response about the arm above being over-engineering. You're copying existing designs instead of trying to work out your own geometries. You could probably move the moving parts behind the monitor, but I don't know how hard a time you'd have keeping the footprint from increasing.
Author: The term is 'overengineering.' You used thick wood and heavy bolts to compensate for the stresses placed on a structure which gives exceptional amounts of leverage on the joints. Overengineering isn't good engineering.
This thing is a nice first prototype, but it looks like a death trap. There is absolutely no reason for the giant lever arm coming up from behind you and all the way around.
Look at the altwork design. It's a lot lighter and more robust. It doesn't place a ton of weight overhead, and there's a lot less leverage on the joints. Or look at ErgoQuest. The monitors are stationary, and only a lightweight desk/keyboard tray moves.
I appreciate your confidence, but I'm afraid it's misplaced. I've been doing woodworking and engineering for a lot more than 15 years. A couple of things to consider:
"When you want to build this kind of structure, I'm not sure you can plan everything beforehand, there are always things that will happen that you didn't expect." You absolutely can. It just takes practice and experience. When I build something, I plan out what I do, and 9/10 it comes together on the first go. For my mentors, it's 10/10. The first few years I was doing this, it was 0/10.
"After a few failing choices, I ended up with a main pole of 7cm x 7cm." You generally want about a 10x safety margin for dynamic loading and similar issues. If you had a few failing designs, you're way too close to failing in your current design.
Back to the overengineering point: Simply using massive beams of wood and bolts doesn't necessarily make things robust. A 7cm x 7cm piece of wood weighs a ton, and puts that much more strain on everything. That's true for all the pieces. I could build a more robust design with normal-sized boards. That has the distinct advantage that if there is a failure, what falls on me my hurt me, but won't kill or cripple me.
I'm glad you're trying, but by overestimating your expertise, you're putting yourself at risk. I'd encourage you to keep trying, but to also take this sort of constructive criticism seriously.
Think through how the desk ought to move so you don't need the giant lever arm, whether you want the monitors to move at all, and where to mount these so you can get in and out easily. I can think of a half-dozen designs where there are no massive lever arms, where nothing moves or just the keyboard tray moves, where if things break, I don't die, and generally simpler, lighter, and more robust.
/r/DIY, and basically every other part of the easily accessible public internet where people used to build things died because the people who build things left those parts of the internet.
The people who actually build cool stuff left because they didn't like a bunch of people with little to no experience in the things they are doing telling them about how they should have done them and that should have worn more safety glasses, used more jack stands and that a Dremel is going to eat their hand if they use it while wearing work gloves. Nobody who's actually contributing content of any value is going to stick around somewhere they have to take shit from a bunch of internet riff-raff that isn't contributing anything.
There's calling out stuff that's actually unlikely to last and there's pandering to the safety crowd for virtue points and the publicly accessible internet is rife with the former while actual constructive criticism is proportionally rare. For every comment to the tune of "you should consider fastener X because your application is Y and that plays to X's strength Z" there are ten teenagers (or adults acting like teenagers) making some low effort jab about something in the building code, or some written list of best practices, they don't understand the reasons behind.
It takes time and effort to build something. It doesn't take any time and effort to make some quip about PPE so that a bunch of teenagers can click on an up arrow and you can get your fix. The people actually building things got sick of being used like that.
The last time I participated, a guy had build a loft in his garage that was going to fall on his head or his car within a year. Sooner if he actually put all the stuff on his shelves up there.
try /r/woodworking for a more mature conversation.
The people who know they fucked up post self-deprecating pictures for a group chuckle. Showing your first dovetail (even if it looks like a 10 year old made it) is practically a rite of passage. The rest of the projects are usually small enough they can't kill people, or anchored to the floor so you might lose a toe at worst.
> Nobody who's actually contributing content of any value is going to stick around somewhere they have to take shit from a bunch of internet riff-raff that isn't contributing anything.
Ah, yes. The exact realization I had, 26 years ago, which made me finally give up on asking questions in EFNet #Linux.
I got a bed laptop stand from AliExpress, used it when I had back problems and had trouble being in any position except lying down. $15 and worked fine with my laptop. The same item on Amazon:
https://www.amazon.com/Laptop-Adjustable-Ergonomic-Aluminum-...
Saving $3500 is a powerful motivator for a lot of people.
I was trying to find a used/rent/borrow arrangement for a device called a log arch a few years ago, to help with a landscaping project. This is how I discovered just how many people have learned to basic to intermediate welding to avoid the labor costs of having someone else do low-volume work for them. Especially out in the boonies.
I hate this attitude that apartment dwellers shouldn't be able to live their lives. I regret that I went along and never played my flute while I lived in an apartment for many years. I think we should either be expecting some neighbor noise (during reasonable hours) or demanding that landlords soundproof thoroughly.
People like you are why I don't live in cities anymore.
Seriously, everytime there is some kind of pro-urbanist post here on HN, I think to myself "sure, but noise". And people who don't value peace and quiet.
I appreciate peace and quiet too, which is why I mentioned soundproofing. IIUC the standards for condos in my area are considerably stricter in this regard than those for apartments. I'd support raising the apartment standards to match.
As the sister comment said, noise isolation is what you want. I live in an apartment with masonry walls and floors, and I basically cannot hear anything from my neighbours. The most I hear is tap tap tap when someone above is walking with heels on.
Now if you have any ideas for noise outside I'm open :-) A hipster bar opened opposite last year (when we moved in there was a commercial unit that had been empty for a few years, turns out it was a restaurant with alcohol license before), and we regularly have drunk people speaking loudly/shouting outside in the evenings from Thursday - Saturday. We can obviously close the window (triple glazed), but it's nice to have a breeze coming in.
doing amateur carpentry work in your apartment, cutting up 2x4s and stuff to build furniture is unacceptable. Do it off site or in the parking garage or something. The amount of sawdust on the floor alone tells me this was a very noisy process.
Drilling into wood doesn't make much noise. Cutting wood with a hand saw doesn't make much noise. Using a hammer can be noisy, but a project like this wouldn't use many (or any) nails.
No, negative externalities aren’t ok when you do it, or when cities do it, or when businesses do it, or when anyone does it. You don’t get to harm other’s welfare. Take your construction project to a public park or outdoors somewhere
I don't think this whole conversation needs to be so dramatic.
I live in NYC and do projects like this chair all the time. I talk to my neighbors and ask them when they wont be home or when would be a good time to do X hours of work.
Most of the time they say don't worry about it as long as it's not past like 9pm or before 10am. I extend the same courtesy to my neighbors in turn. Just communicate and be reasonable.
say that again after you've been awake until 2am working on a project, want to sleep in, and your neighbor brings a chop saw and drill into their apartment and starts slicing up 2x4 lumber in their living room the next morning.
Except it's not your apartment, it's the landlord's apartment, and they probably have rules against being so loud that people in adjacent units want to move out.
Those options aren't available to everyone, particularly during the pandemic. None of the apartments I lived in had outlets near parking or any kind of shared space appropriate for carpentry.
Personal attacks will get you banned here, regardless of how wrong someone else is or you feel they are. No more of this, please—we're trying for something significantly different here.
If you aren't using powertools [I only saw a picture of two hand saws], woodworking makes very little noise. The loudest part of OPs project was probably vacuuming once they finished.
A quiet vacuum cleaner is one of the best surprises I had when moving out and buying many things new, thus making appliance decisions myself for the first time.
It doesn't have to be loud!
I literally vacuumed under my sleeping girlfriend (and it's not like she sleeps that deeply on the sofa, it just wasn't louder than the running TV). The loudest part is, unless you turn it to max power, the scraping of the thing over the floor. Compare that to the upstairs neighbours, who we barely hear except when they vacuum.
My mom's first reaction, when I excitedly told her, was "yeah but those don't have any power". Not sure, I've used a bunch of vacuum cleaners over the years (old or second-hand in student rooms, newer stuff at my parents' house) and this one doesn't do any better or worse than others. The EU also reduced the max power of new vacuum cleaners, apparently they're overspec'd for the job and people just buy what they think will get them done faster I guess? Haven't read up on it, I just remember reading that the max power allowance went down as of some recent year. Perhaps the loudness is subconsciously a proxy for performance since an ordinary person can hardly measure suction directly?
In the EU, appliances have a score card. In the case of vacuum cleaners it contains things like how well it vacuums, how much dust comes back out while vacuuming, how loud it is, how much power it uses, and another stat or two that I don't remember. They're all roughly the same (I just walked through the store from vacuum to vacuum for each stat to see what the best is you can get per price category) in pretty much every stat except noise level and power usage. In those two categories you can win a bunch for virtually no extra money and I'm super happy with it.
Cities are just large human settlements with high density and a (mostly synthetic/mental) boundary defining it's area.
One of the many parts mostly any city has are residential areas. Noise is absolutely not desired there, even if you think it is. What you seem to be talking about are public, business and industrial areas for example. Demographic development has people living there, sure. But mostly because it's cheap because of the noise and other environmental issues.
Cities have always been cacophonous. Moving to a city and then asking your neighbors to be quiet is like moving next to a farm and then asking them to stop making smells. There is much more quiet real estate in America than noisy real estate — don’t go to New York City and then ask your neighbors to tread lightly after 8pm on weekends because your baby is sleeping.
Thankfully despite your opinion New York does a good job of putting these noise complainers in their place. Unless the noise is beyond the pale or at hours between 10pm and 7am, complainers are told to GTFO most of the time. Somehow the city still remains a highly sought after place to live, half of it because all the whiners who need silence for realigning their chakras have decamped to Hastings-on-Hudson.
A friend once said “There’s all these studies about how bad sitting is for you. Now there are even studies about how bad standing desks are for you. Nobody ever says anything bad about laying down so I just try to do that as much as possible.”
IME it's not sitting or standing or lying down that's injurious, it's not moving. My pain to a large extent went away when I stopped staying so still. Now I change my posture on the regular, from leaning against the backrest to sitting away from it to taking little breaks to pace around a bit.
Similarly, I used to get eye strain from all the screen time. Until I moved to an office with a view and I found myself staring out whenever I would zone out to think. Now I'm working from home and don't have the same inducement to look out and my eyes have started bothering me again. I try to observe 20-20-20 (every 20 minutes spend 20 seconds looking at something 20 feet away) but it's not quite the same.
A physiotherapist once said to me that sitting with bad posture isn't even bad for you... as long as you don't stay in the same position too long. So the problem isn't sitting, standing or lying down, its doing those for too long. I suppose probably due to not moving, as you said.
I find my self working more and more sitting on the floor with my legs crossed on a floor pillow and the laptop on top of a shin high living room table. My legs can only take this for about half an hour before I start feeling the lack of blood flow, so I’m forced to change positions, stand up and rest for a little, or move to a desk or to the sofa. Even in the sofa I work sitting with my legs crossed up in the sofa for the same reason. I find this forces me to change my position quite frequently and never work for too long at a time without moving at least a little.
A hunched sitting posture and little physical activity does likely impair the metabolism though. The human metabolism has adapted for things to be upright and moving all the time, not for sitting absolutely still with compression forces acting upon the abdominal intestines by being hunched over for hours at a time.
Anecdotaly I didn't get proscribed reading glasses until a year or two after I quite smoking...
Seriously though, one thing I did find was when I quit smoking my ability to solve complex problems at work went down for a while. I was no longer taking a forced 10 minute break every 60-90 minutes that let my brain reset. (Or explaining my problem out loud to another filthy smoker skulking around the back of the building :D )
Fortunately for me it was about the same time that the Pomodoro technique was featured on Lifehacker and I implemented a similar system to replace the regular nicotine craving induced breaks.
Nicotine is also an acetylcholinergic stimulant, meaning it aids in the quickness of thought [0]. By removing this from your stack you probably depressed your acetylcholine for a while, making you less able to think clearly.
It might also be the lack of breaks too, but who knows.
My old office had a dart board in the lounge. I think it was quite ingenious in that it forced the workers to focus their eyes differently from their screen time whenever they took a dart break.
I have often thought about how driving for hours in a bucket seat, at least in the cars I've owned, has never been a struggle. The only thing that comes out wrong is I don't always hydrate, and that makes me a zombie (which is now a solved problem for me). So that leads to the thought that maybe, have the water supply for the hydroflask at a distance from the desk, so you have to get out of the chair to refill.
Back in 2008, BMW introduced an "active" anti-fatigue feature in their X6 that subtly and continuously changed the contour of the seat. I tried it on a long drive, and it is barely perceptible. If I didn't know I had turned it on, I'm not sure I would have noticed it was on.
Some medical beds have a similar feature where the mattress will inflate/deflate in different areas to best match the patient's weight distribution. They'll also inflate/deflate on a cycle.
Supposedly it's good for patients that stay in bed for long periods without moving as it improves circulation, reduces back pain and prevents bed sores.
I have an Airhawk cushion on my motorcycle and one one of the things I find best about it is everytime I stopped for petrol I'd let a little air out, or add a little air. It took 10s and gave me a different riding position for the next few hours. I can spend a lot longer in the saddle with it than without. (Speaking of saddles, I plan on trying it next time I go horse riding too, though I don't know what my queue will be for adjusting the volume of air).
Interesting! I used to have a Morgan car, and the seat was a blow-up to which I'd add or remove air to change my position. It helped avoid discomfort on long-distance trips.
I would pay for a chair with this tech. I have back problems which go away when I exercise and some pain when sitting still caused by an accident a few years ago.
I've seen multiple hacks where people go to the junkyard and pick up an old Mercedes or BMW driver's seat, hook it up to power, and then use that as their desk chair with a floating desk.
If I had the space I'd consider it myself. Like you, I can drive five hours without stopping and be fine the whole way and when I get there.
Car makers have spent a fair amount of money trying to make better seats. A luxury car from 1920s is much less comfortable than the economy car today. Comfortable seats are important for people who drive all the time, and they tend to buy cars.
Checking local laws where the car was demonstrated, it appears that it is not actually mandatory that skirt wearers put their legs up on the ottoman. While local police may harass you anyway, there is sufficient leg room to place your legs in the space between the edge of the seat and the ottoman.
I'm not sure it's the chair so much as the movement that changes things. You're shifting around a lot when driving. Legs moving on pedals, arms and hands wheel turning, head+shoulders turning to look left and right.
It'd be nice if being comfortable at a computer all day was as easy as changing the seat but i don't believe that's true.
> You're shifting around a lot when driving. Legs moving on pedals, arms and hands wheel turning, head+shoulders turning to look left and right.
As someone who lives in the midwest, I have to disagree. Pick pretty much any random 100 mile stretch of I-70 or I-80 between the Appalachians and the Rockies and the majority of it will be straight enough that you could set the cruise and only have to turn the wheel a few degrees at most as long as traffic doesn't do anything stupid.
When I was younger and dumber I once drove from I-71 near Cleveland almost to Chicago with just my knee on the wheel. There's a kink about half way across Indiana that was the only real challenge.
> Pick pretty much any random 100 mile stretch of I-70 or I-80 between the Appalachians and the Rockies
Having recently (and historically many times before that) drove both I-70 and I-80 in the area indicated, I feel you’re being a bit hyperbolic. I’d agree both are as described for some 100 mile stretches (I-70 between Hays / Salina KS and I-80 between Lincoln / Grand Island NE as two examples), but not any random section.
I think it's pretty healthy to get up and go walk to a window to stare out of it for a spell. I've been trying to take short walks around my block throughout the day to prevent any soreness or posture issues, as well. I didn't realize it, but back before the pandemic I was walking probably 5 miles a day at least commuting and walking around work, plus a dozen or so flights of stairs.
I used to commute to a city from which I live about an hour by train away. I worked from home a lot, but would travel there a lot too and every day I did, I easily walked over 10km each day, since I walked to and from the train station on both sides and in the city I'd walk everywhere too if I was going anywhere for lunch or after work, so it added up very quickly. With covid, I haven't been since early this year and I definitely miss all the walking. I try to go for walks here, but when I went to work there, it was an unconscious thing that I just did without thinking, while here its a decision I have to consciously make, which makes it a lot harder.
Totaly agree with this analysis. I've got a Furna motorised standing desk, a wobble board and a kneeling stool. Apart from looking like a middle-class numpty in some kind of hellhole physio studio, it's actually pretty great having lots of options.
I've also taken to being fairly strict with a Pomodoro routine. 25 minutes focused (strictly locking down email!) work, 5 minutes when I get up and have a wander around the house. I think my attention is better, my eyes get a chance to rest, less aches.
The other thing I did was to start using mouse left-handed. I got terrible RSI with my right (I'm naturally right-handed) and actually although I'm slower with my left it's no bad thing - my movement is more considered, less jerky, and I think has a lower impact on anything likely to trigger RSI.
So yeh, I think I'm ok for a death-trap lying down desk, thanks anyway...
Same experience. I like to rotate between 2 chairs, sometimes standing up, sometimes laying down. I still have mild back pain sometimes, but it's way better than what it used to be. I used to barely be able to sleep through it.
If you are suffering from back pain caused by sitting and have trouble sleeping, I used this video [1] to relieve the pain for a while. It helped so much that after 2-3 weeks of doing it every day 2-3 times, I was able to sleep normally again. I also slept on the ground for a while since my mattress was too soft. I now own a very firm mattress.
I am aware of this which is why I have always wanted one of those standing table treadmill combinations. I'm just not sure that I could actually work and concentrate while running... maybe if the table somehow compensated for the shaking caused by running on the treadmill. Or maybe one could use a VR headset instead of a regular display.
> But while standing may be better than sitting, I like to at least start my day with something more active, and for more than a decade I’ve been making sure to walk for a couple of hours every morning. But how can I be productive while I’m walking? Well, nearly 15 years ago (i.e. long before it was popular!) I set up a treadmill with a computer in the room next to my office:
> The biomechanics weren’t too hard to work out. I found out that by putting a gel strip at the correct pivot point under my wrists (and putting the mouse on a platform) I can comfortably type while I’m walking. I typically use a 5% incline and go at 2 mph—and I’m at least fit enough that I don’t think anyone can tell I’m walking while I’m talking in a meeting. (And, yes, I try to get potentially frustrating meetings scheduled during my walking time, so if I do in fact get frustrated I can just “walk it off” by making the treadmill go a little faster.)
I have used "walking desk" setup now for about a year. Treadmill is kind of special walking treadmill, speed ranges from 1-5 km/h (0.5km/h steps). I normally walk about 5-6km per day while working. Mostly speed is 1 or 1.5km/h.
Only downside is that when having video meeting, my head is bouncing while walking. Usually leads the conversation on treadmill.
I had a diy one for a while. I found it really hard to type and walk. I can't imagine trying to type and run.
These days I just make time for moving outside of work and change my position at work. Standing desk, sitting on an exercise ball, sitting in a chair, repeat.
I'm lucky enough to be able to move around my house a lot and I get up pretty frequently. I actually have a pretty well-equipped office with keyboard tray, dual monitors, and HM chair. But I actually work a fair bit in a nice sunny room with a fairly cheap but comfortable Ikea chair that leans back and a foot rest. I work in that with my laptop just on my lap if I don't need a bunch of screen real estate.
The body is complex. Try not to box its functioning into simplistic principles like "it's not moving". Zen practice, for example, involves sitting as still as you can for 25 mins at a stretch, followed by a meditation walk for a few minutes and then resuming. A retreat (called "sesshin") will typically involve such sitting for about 8-9 hours a day, for 4 days to a week. Monks have been doing this for a couple of millennia at the very least if you consider only Buddhism. In other traditions, monks may sit continuously for far longer than the 25 mins characteristic of current traditions. No longitudinal study of postures can top that record.
The sitting posture matters because the spine is kept erect naturally, like a vertical pendulum. Once you get used to it, it is a pretty relaxed posture that feels quite sustainable .. compared to sitting in any chair.
> IME it's not sitting or standing or lying down that's injurious, it's not moving. My pain to a large extent went away when I stopped staying so still. Now I change my posture on the regular, from leaning against the backrest to sitting away from it to taking little breaks to pace around a bit.
I'm a big guy, 6'4", and fidgety. Being tall, I learned early on good posture is crucial for a pain free back, as is strong back muscles. Between that and being always moving, I don't deal with a fraction of the body issues a lot of office workers seem to. The worst is long flights, because getting up and walking around at least once an hour is something I don't even have to think about, so planes aren't great for that. On planes I understand why people want comfort at their desk.
I do lots of work in my hammock -- I can shift to many different positions, including putting my feet down and gently pushing side to side. Laptop only, but hopefully eventually with VR
so basically just a desk that constantly moves around? I suppose if you want to be 100% ergonomically friendly it should also just leave the room and go for a walk. If you want to keep working, you need to come along!
When I had my spine surgery and was bed-ridden I scoured the web for such a setup which will help me use a laptop in bed without moving my neck and wasn't able to find anything practical.
I've now come to the conclusion that low latency video glasses/headset connected as external display to the laptop/smartphone is a better solution for that problem as it doesn't require any of these contraptions; But I'm still in search of one[1].
I'm severely disabled from a back injury and I use this(link below) over my bed, with a vesa wall mount attached in place of the horizontal bar mount that comes with it. I've also got a pair of joycons that I use as dual mice through steam so I can put my arms anywhere. You need a wall mount arm that tilts up and down though, which a lot don't. I also have a lightweight keyboard that hangs from behind the monitor by twine and some sticky wall hooks so it's virtually weightless and allows me to elevate my legs and not have to hold up the keyboard to type
I don't want to be overly negative/critical, but an observation: Facebook's decision to require Facebook logins for all Oculus products seems like a very good reason to branch out support other VR devices ASAP. Mandatory Facebooks is a concern for privacy-focused private users, but double a concern for work-related tooling.
Thanks I think I've seen that, unfortunately I suffer from extreme simulation sickness, can't even play Minecraft and hence I'm exploring non-VR direct display glasses.
But, those who have no issues with VR might indeed find immersedvr useful.
VR motion sickness comes pretty much entirely from games which require your body to move with a controller rather than actual movement. If you are just using it as a virtual monitor then its very unlikely you will feel sick.
The real problem is no VR headset has a resolution high enough to come even close to what a normal monitor would provide dpi wise.
FWIW I also get extreme motion sickness with VR. Except the Oculus (Edit: Oculus Quest). I don't know why, but that one doesn't bother me at all. I've literally used it for hours at a time with no problems.
Now, that's very interesting. John Carmack said in an interview couple of years back that simulation sickness is the foremost problem to solve in VR, perhaps they have addressed that in Quest?
Thanks, now I'm intrigued. I'll have to checkout Quest soon.
Possibly the computer you were using was not able to keep up a consistent frame rate or your experience is with one of the oculus dev kits which were low spec.
Minecraft VR? I tend to not get VR sickness, but Minecraft was an exception. The movement of the character is really not designed for VR, it is pretty fast and there's lots of verticality.
I guess you have to find a low weight VR set though.
I completely get it because of how easy it is to get lost in the VR experience and forget about the outside worlds. Seems great for productivity. Might have to try it out sometime.
This is what I ordered before the surgery and used it for a while when in bed. But it induced nausea after a while of use. But this is the most cost effective solution for those who are bit more tolerant to simulation sickness.
While sitting or laying at a desk all day, you'd have to try very very hard to get a bed sore from doing it, wincing through quite a bit of pain and itching and discomfort to remain seated.
There's a reason the guy in the image is like 90+ years old and either suffers from immobility and/or nerve issues. Anyone more healthy than that would feel the need to squirm and get up long before one would form.
Also, the way we sit in a chair isn't exactly activating any muscles over just laying down or reclining in a La-z-boy. For that reason I do like the idea of sitting on one of those inflatable yoga balls when I'm not standing.
I bet you could burn an extra 200 calories a day just incidentally bouncing as you ponder HN.
Why is this downvoted? It’s accurate - healthy, mobile-able individuals don’t get pressure ulcers. You’ll shift your weight and move around enough to avoid any damage.
It’s folks who are bedridden and don’t have the ability to move themselves around that get pressure ulcers. Combine that with poor circulation and potential nerve damage (diabetes) and it’s not hard to do.
A health 35 year old? You’d have to force yourself to get a pressure ulcer.
The point is: having another fundamental class of postures available - in this case "lying" (in addition to sitting and standing) - increases our flexibility (and potential for respite) by approximately 33 percent.
For people suffering from severe RSI -- especially those for whom essentially any amount of sitting in one class (say "sitting"), even in difference positions within that class -- becomes unbearable for more than an hour or so -- then this 33 percent can be of significant impact.
Also - for some people standing just doesn't work (for more than very short intervals). So in fact the lying option provides significantly more respite potential (50 percent).
It is kind of true. Humans are only bipedal thanks to some fairly recent evolutionary hacks, and not all the bugs have been worked out yet. It's totally possible for both sitting and standing to be bad for you.
The worst potential consequence of laying down is that your back muscles would become weaker. This is one of the reasons why sitting harms your back, and with laying down it would be even worse. Unless it's combined with some exercise it could be a really bad idea.
How long are you using it for every day?
I also own that chair, but i find it uncomfortable for longer periods of time and tend switch to a chair with a backrest after ~1h
Some days I actually sit on it for 8-10 hours (I hate to admit it).
I do take breaks and it can become fatiguing so occasionally, I feel like having a slouch so I go lie on the floor or use a regular chair (with decent posture) for a break.
Probably what this chair has done for me the most is make sitting with bad posture feel noticeably strange and unnatural.
There must also be something to be said for the fact that there is a “ramp up” time. I don’t think I have a stronger back from using this chair alone, although I guess I do have a less damaged and atrophied one. I do remember a time when it felt like certain muscles were getting stronger. I vaguely remember it taking a few months to become comfortable.
It’s worth mentioning that I do a fair bit of weight training too and that I’ve had the chair for about 8 years.
I can confirm. I've mostly been working from my bed during these Covid times, and once I started going to the gym I was astonished by just how weak my back was, as opposed to my upper body or legs. But thankfully, it's building back up nicely.
I recently did PT for lower back stuff mostly related to sitting for long periods.
I went from constant “3-4” level pain to “0-1” pain. I’m still working on strengthening, and re-injured my back moving something heavy, but PT was a game changer.
A lot of stretching like the above video shows, as well as working on posture, sleeping position, as well as just overall education on how my muscles work and what to do when I feel them tighten up or feel an area swelling up.
It’s mostly simple stuff but requires habit changes and can be time consuming so you have to fit it into regular routines. Stretching before/after bed, while you brush teeth, etc.
You look weird randomly stretching on a stair while you stir your tea, but it can make a big difference.
Yup. It's sort of astonishing how neatly doing reasonably heavy deadlifts 1-2x a week just fixes basically all the usual lower back problems common to middle age and a lifestyle with a ton of sitting.
Along with the other good replies, I think almost any strength exercise that has any connection to the back will probably do fine, especially if you're not doing anything at all right now.
Among the many other things I had hammered into me about health when I was a kid in the late 1980s and 1990s that I've come to reject is the incessant hammerbeat about aerobics, aerobics, aerobics. I think the evidence is that the average person is better off with a lot more strength training, which will incidentally train you on some aerobics, and if you feel like occasionally folding some aerobics in, hey, go for it. They're not bad or anything. But they ought to be considered a specialist training, like working out legs specifically for biking, not a default that everybody do. Strength training is a default everybody should work on. Strength training isn't so you can lift 300 pounds when you help your friend move... it because it makes everything work better. You sleep better. Your back hurts less. You fall less. You build a better base for aging.
not an expert, but I talked to my physical trainer about this. he said sitting all day is not necessarily that bad for you if you sit with a good upright posture that engages the core. of course, almost no one does this. most people will tend to slouch forward, which has a couple consequences.
your shoulders will shrug and round forwards, which will limit your range of motion over time. any stretch that retracts the scapula should help; also if you do any exercise like a row, make sure to focus on really pinching your scapula together.
your core muscles will weaken, leaving your spine more vulnerable to injury. "hunched forward" will become your default posture which exacerbates this further. your spine is actually really strong when it is aligned properly, but you need good core strength to do this. doing a "hollow body" pose and your basic plank are good ways to strengthen these muscles (overarching your spine in either direction is a problem).
A swivel-less hard chair forces one to find the right position to sit up IMO. Chair height, distance to keyboard, desk height, they all play a role too. But comfy chairs are not good in the long run
Nope, Padmasana isn’t a back strengthening pose, although a strong core is necessary to maintain it for a typical meditation session. Salabhasana (locust pose) is great for the entire back side of the body.
I'd say anything that engages the core (superman, plank variations) and activates the upper back (YTWL's) would be good choices, ideally substituted with some stretches or mobility work
I would like some sort of setup like this when I throw my back out. I usually can’t do anything except lay in bed for 2-3 days and am pretty much useless. But I could at least do some work while I’m not sleeping.
In college I had some back problems, so I improvised (an incredibly unwise) lay-down desk by putting my monitor face down on two chairs and just lying with my face underneath it. This was a heavy CRT, not a modern LCD monitor. (Did I mention this being incredibly unwise...?)
Those are all negative. Lots of HN comments are positive.
Can you think of any other community where someone can discuss the damage of a CRT monitor falling into your face with terms like "scale linearly" and everybody just nods in agreement?
I think it's delightful, one of the little pleasures of hanging around here.
The functional programming one could probably be generalized to "argues for switching to a programming language or programming paradigm when it doesn't even make sense for the particular context or HN thread topic".
There's always someone that's religious about their particular technical choices.
* dismisses the thought by referring to the commenter's privilege for having it in the first place, rather than commenting on the value or feasibility of the thought itself.
You forgot "find a wordy way to criticize something while pretending you're suggesting an improvement so that you can pander to some viewpoint that it's hard to argue against with the demographics here being what they are"
I used to have a large CRT monitor that was 30kg (I don't recall the actual screen size, but it was somewhere between 20-30". It was an absolute behemoth, and I remember the desk sagged down at least an inch in the centre. It looked pretty dodgy, but it sat there for years without incident!
I suspended a kindle over my bed on two 2-meter rails used for reinforcing wall edges. Best reading I did while recovering from leg injuries, but risky as you mentioned.
In a small apartment I used to rent, there was a rod for hanging clothes over the bed. I didn't use the rod, so I just hung a tablet from the rod and watched movies in bed. It's a very comfortable position to be in, don't have to strain your neck.
I have a cantilevered tablet holder over my bed, it can hold a Kindle or iPad without effort and has both clamps and an elastic cord to retain them.
Then for ultimate convenience (laziness) I connected a bluetooth presentation clicker to my iPad to turn the pages for me so I didn't have to keep reaching up or take my arms out from under the blanket on cold nights. In two years it's never dropped.
I just hang mine with a long string and adjustable friction knots for tilt. The downside is it can still spin but my non-ideal fix is to throw a heavier shoelace string off to the side and move it as needed.
I had to look that up, but yes that looks correct. Except that, from the diagram, it bends your view by less than a right angle. Opposite vertical direction though.
me too! I've recommended them to so many people at this point (including another commenter upthread). kindle landscape mode is great for prism glasses, just at the upper bound of what their vertical FOV can hold.
There's a comic strip I can't find anymore that showed the progression of ergonomic work environments, ending with a workstation with the person leaning forward with their chest supported. Imagine someone on a sports bike, that's about what the position was.
I've found the best lying down desk is a $300 mini-projector and a yoga mat. You project at the ceiling (so projector is above your head) and then put a wireless keyboard on your stomach, with mouse by your side. Alternate with a standing desk. Good after 10 years of jiu-jitsu and a knackered body
Twenty years ago or so, I borrowed a projector from the office (they were still very expensive at the time), and spent a couple of nights watching movies on the ceiling with friends, while lying down on the floor.
It was incredibly comfortable, and uncomfortably decadent at the same time.
My wife and I used to do that when she was a teacher. Over the summer we'd bring her classroom projector home and watch movies on the ceiling. It was great!
Now we have adjustable beds and a TV in the bedroom, so that's easier.
The mouse is a little out of the way. Seems like have you to move to a workflow that you are almost entirely on keyboard? I would love that but just find that there is so much forced mouse interaction which I would like to avoid?
If you just need to click a button or two now and then, keynav is great. It’s one of the programs I have in a script to fetch automatically on fresh GNU installs, though it’s no replacement for vi bindings everywhere one can get them (vis, dwm, tmux, Pentadactyl, etc.)
I do something similar. Typing isn't bad but it's sometimes tough to get your fingers at the right starting positions for touch typing. I put a few tactile stickers on the keyboard to help. Otherwise it is very comfortable.
In my experience, I've found a MS Surface and a gooseneck ipad holder is a lightweight ideal laydown desk. I clamp the gooseneck a few feet above me in bed and I can lay perfectly flat and have access to a full PC.
It also can be disassembled and stored in moments.
Could you please point me to your choice of stickers, or mention the brand? I desperately need some bumps on the current keyboard and thought of messing with glue and plastic, but it hasn't occurred to me that someone already made a finished solution for that. From searching, I now see a bunch of related stuff, like braille and such, so it would help to narrow it down to more suitable products.
Yeah, but for for farther away keys, like / or \ for example, you can loose the registration of your fingertips and mistype.
Laying down and typing is at a weird angle so you can't quickly check that your fingers are aligned right. It is just easier to have a tactile anchor at the far end of the keyboard, particularly when typing fast.
How about one of those keyboards that split into left hand and right hand? Then your hands can be at your side. Like when using Nintendo Switch Joycons.
I've had a setup like this for years, but it's much simpler: monitor arm [1], ultrawide display [2], keyboard + trackpad lap tray [3], any couch. Been through many iterations and like this gear, but you can do it for cheap just as easily.
Mount the arm to something (like a desk) and swing it over the couch to lay down. In my case, I can actually pivot it between the couch and the chair on the other side of the desk.
Great for a few hours a day when you want to sink into focus mode. Super highly recommended it.
Ergomart actually looked at the specs of my monitor and recommended the right arm and parts to properly balance the weight. I'll happily recommend them recommend them.
The monitor moves easily on three axes, and tilts; cords are cable-managed through the pole. I just sit down and plug in a single USB-C cable to get video, webcam, keyboard/mouse, and power.
Same, I put my desk next to a recliner and the monitor on an armature and just swing it back and forth. The downside: the arrangement is kinda comfortable so I tend to play games in it. As a result, my mind associates it with non-work and have trouble focusing there. Also laying down all day is probably not healthy.
Luckily I've managed to associate it with more of a "deep focus" state, but a lot of people seem to feel like they'd get tired and fall asleep if they used a setup like this.
I actually think the biggest downside to the multi-station dynamic setup is that the ideal monitor configuration for that is a single curved ultrawide, and there are essentially no high resolution options.
So, is the keyboard tray resting on your legs just above your knees and your hands are resting on top, sort of at 170-180 degrees (if raised above your head was 0/360)? Or have you done something to raise up the keyboard so your hands are more like 90 degrees (like a normal desk pose puts them)?
Yes, keyboard just above the knees. It's similar to the angle you'd get if you were slouching and your forearms were resting on the desk. Generally quite comfortable.
I think raising my hands up higher (90 degrees as you say) would actually be a lot worse. Never understood that aspect of all the more "real" laying desks.
I should note that I purposely don't use a mouse with this setup, because it would end up being quite far away and would need to be on a solid surface.
I use a very similar setup, and I use a mouse because I've never found a keyboard I liked that includes a touch pad. I've simply taken another monitor arm + a laptop holder attachment. Flip it and put a firm pad on top and you have a mouse pad holder that you can position in 3d exactly where you want it.
I would love to use something with a TrackPoint, but I have an irrational fear of committing to a non-fullsize keyboards. It's regretful that they don't build different keyboard variants or license the tech out, but I assume the market isn't large enough to warrant more offers.
There is a space inside the desk board to let the body go, then both sides of the desk are resting on the chair so there is no force applied on my stomach.
And contrary to what we can imagine, there is not much weight, the right part of the desk, which could fall on me if something breaks is about 40kg. Thats the advantage of wood, it is very light
1. There is a failure near the top of the stand. The whole thing comes collapsing down verticaly
2. There is a failure in the swing-> pressure is pushed towards the user. I just saw that the table connects to the chair.. looks like that would mitigate some of the force
3. When pushing the desk out to get in, there could be a failure at the pivot point above..if you're sitting in there.. that's a post going to the head.
Posts are VERY heavy. They're even worse that high up and above you.
FYI, I had an extremely comfortable semi-reclined desk made with a poang chair once, and you'll want to know that after 6 months of full time use, the lumbar support eventually gives out on the back cushion and it becomes your worst nightmare. Either reinforce it or prepare to replace it regularly.
Same here. The way the thing wobbles in the video doesn't inspire confidence. Although even if the monitor falls off I don't think it will hurt too badly.
I've been using the Altwork (https://altwork.com/) desk for this purpose since January, and I'd recommend it to anyone who wants this sort of thing. It was expensive (~$7K), but I needed it due to a medical condition that makes extended sitting difficult for me, and it's made a big difference in my ability to work despite this condition.
The workstation is awesome technology; it's really well built, nicely runs wires everywhere, etc. My only complaint is that the headrest is too hard to be lying down on it for hours at a time -- I fixed that by putting an old sweater between my head and the headrest, which made it perfectly comfortable for me. One thing that might not be obvious is that it takes up surprisingly little space -- something like 4' x 6'.
Talking to them about the delivery, a lot of their customers are other folks with medical reasons to want it, because I think that's what justifies the price point for people. But the price will come down with scale (there's already a $4K model: https://altwork.com/products/flex-altwork-station?variant=34...). And at that price point, the price is immaterial compared to software salaries, at least if you think about it as a capital item that will amortize over many years.
I don't know if anyone else does this really bad habit, but at night I sit in bed with my laptop, back against the wall, laptop on my lap/upright knees.
Then gradually, I sink into lying down and my laptop held on it's bottom edge on my chest, knees keeping the laptop upright.
Finally, I know it's time to go to sleep when I doze off and the laptop hits me in the face.
I always dreamt of having a laptop stand that could suspend the laptop above me while lying down. I guess this guy made it happen.
I used to do that a lot. Then my mother in law got me this thing that you fasten to the headboard and it suspends your phone/tablet above your head, so you can lay down and consume data.
It basically looked like a desk lamp with a tension holder at the end.
Even better is to gain a slight potbelly so that you can just lie down on your back and with your laptop on your belly, elevated into a comfortable line of sight.
The secret to anything in life is simple: Balance. Spend too much time at the extremes and negative results will follow.
This is no different. Sit too long; stand too long; lay down too long. All bad for you in the long term.
I switched from a sitting to a standing desk with a high chair. This allows me to switch between sitting and standing multiple times per day without having to fiddle with the motorized desk too much. I make it a point to go for a short walk a few times a day when I transition from sitting to standing. And exercise is key.
I've seen lots of these desks that allow you to lie down. From my perspective, this is a horrible idea unless there's a solid medical reason for it. In other words, someone with a condition that almost requires it. People in bed at extended care facilities develop all kinds of problems. This is no different. Almost every muscle in your body weakens. Not a good thing. I hate to think what happens to gamers who buy these desks and sit there for ten hours at a time playing. Horrible stuff.
Once VR is high enough fidelity, we should be able to just use a VR headset and virtual monitors, hopefully. There is even pretty good hand tracking software such that if you look at your hands with the VR headset on you'll see your hands, and you can also project the keyboard for the times when you need to look at your hands and / or keyboard.
I remember a couple years ago reading that to get roughly of 1080p of at VR headset distances would require the equivalent , from a pixel perspective, of several (I believe it was 8) standard sized desktop monitors. The implication of this was that we were a LONG way off from having that level of resolution so I would be very interested to know current state of the art.
> to get roughly of 1080p of at VR headset distances would require the equivalent , from a pixel perspective, of several (I believe it was 8) standard sized desktop monitors
Can someone provide a link to elaborate? My intuition would be that you wouldn't need any more pixels, just smaller pixels. It feels like the aforementioned claim is comparing apples to oranges: to fill your entire FOV with desktop monitors at normal distances would also take about eight monitors.
The key metric is pixels per degree, which is going to come from both the field of view in VR as well as the monitor resolution.
To put this in Snellen eye chart perspective, in order to read the 20/20 line and distinguish letter details to tell them apart, you have to be able to see details as fine as 1 arc min - 1/60th of a degree.
So basically if your math comes up with less than 60 pixels per degree, you are going to essentially be near sighted inside of the VR environment.
Let's say you have a set of VR goggles with a 140 degree field of view. You need 140 degrees * 60 pixels/degree =8400 pixels to get that same visual acuity as 20/20 vision in real life.
Using HP's new G2 goggles (coming out soon) as an example, they have a screen resolution of 2,160 pixels,and (I've read) about a 100 degree horizontal FOV. That works out to about 22 pixels per degree. Which is about like having 20/55 vision. This is why in VR, you can't read things from a normal distance if drawn to scale. You have to either get closer to them (in VR) or scale them up to make them readable.
You CAN give the user effectively better vision by reducing the field of view. If you don't mind having a 36 degree wide field of view, you'll have 20/20 vision.
I already do a little work in vr. I only work on one 1080 monitor in an Index. It's great for isolating yourself from distraction, but we have a ways to go for sure when it comes to UX. Pixel density, might be starting to get there, but it's still a compromise. I would guess it get there in the next few years with the big push at work from home, and all those Zuck-bucks funding development in portable VR.
Instead of having just one position to work from, I found it is better to be able to alternate between an ergonomic sitting position and a lay-down position. The easier it is to alternate between these positions, the more you will do it because there is less friction.
Bought a used Aeron chair about 10 years ago and is still working fine. Love the Kinesis Keyboard, also about 8 years old.
The Lounge chair needs to be replaced once a year ($50) because by that time the fabric on the back becomes saggy and will start to cause discomfort on the back.
I don't like to use multiple monitors. Somehow I couldn't get used to it.
When I'm on the Lounge chair, keyboard is on my lap and I use the arm rest to make sure my wrist is not pressed against anything.
When I'm sitting, the armrest is adjusted to keep my wrist from touching anything.
I tried this ~15 years ago, based around a Novus Zero Gravity Recliner. At the time I had been having a decade of upper back pain that just wouldn't go away. At one point it was so bad I could hardly get out of bed. At that point I went to an osteopath, on the recommendation of a physician friend of mine, and he gave me some isometric exercises for my neck, and the pain was instantly gone.
I'm not kidding, if he'd dome some slight of hand with chicken parts, I'd totally believe in that psychic surgery crap.
But before that, I created a mount for a laptop and second monitor that would clamp into my bicycle maintenance stand (Ultimate Support Classic), and I could rotate the arm around to bring the screens to a comfortable location.
The biggest problem I had was that there was very little arm support. I could rest part of my forearm on the chair's arm rests, similar but less so than what the article has. Maybe in his case that's fine, but for me it was like holding my arms out in front of me at a 45 degree angle and after maybe an hour it was pretty painful in my shoulders. I probably would have added some additional armrests to it if my back problems hadn't been solved and I decided to abandon it.
I was happily using a Thinkpad keyboard with trackpoint at the time, so the mouse issues didn't impact me. One could also imagine a counter-weighted mouse, with the weights hanging off the back, via a pulley sort of system.
I also found being entirely static for hours at a time wasn't that comfortable, and that sort of "bucket seat" really doesn't lend itself to anything but one position.
Maybe a decade after that, I tried another experiment that worked pretty well. This one I guess I'll call a "lounging desk". I got a nice leather club chair with ottoman, and a big, heavy entertainment center that I put to the side of it.
On the top of the entertainment center I had my laptop and one 30" monitor, and then a monitor arm holding another 30" monitor. This was in front of a window so I could look outside. I could swing the monitor in front of me, and the club chair allowed me to sit or recline or curl up, lots of different positions. This was actually a pretty nice setup, and if I hadn't shortly after that moved jobs to an at-the-office setup, I'd probably still be using it.
These days I find switching between sitting and standing to be very comfortable.
If you don't mind taking a picture of that set-up, I'd like to see it. If you don't feel comfortable, I'd understand as well. :) I have back-pain and have been looking for a (cheaper/affordable) way to have a lounging work set-up like that for two years now. Every decent option I see would cost me ~$5000 and I cannot afford that right now. Thank you.
I'm afraid I no longer have any part of either of those setups except for one of the monitors, the bike maintenance stand, and the monitor arm. I looked through the oldest photos I have online, and it looks like they are all after that setup, or at least don't include any photos of it.
With the exception of the two monitors, which were $1,100 each, the setup boiled down to roughly: $300 for super duper monitor arm, $250 for the entertainment center (close out from fancy furniture place), club chair I already had, but was $350 from a going out of business furniture place. Also $50 for a couple USB hubs I sticky tape mounted conveniently located on entertainment center (computer was back behind entertainment center).
You might like this "pillow pal" which I use on long flights. It's three inflatable pillows and they attach in various shapes with velcro. What is so ingenius about it is you can blow them up inside the space you need for arm or foot support- they're great for long haul flights but I also recently dug them out of my travel bag and used them as a footrest and arm rest for when I am working on the couch.
So I'll prefix this with saying that an Osteopath had checked me out before suggesting these, and that if there were other neck problems this could make them worse. I'd recommend seeing an Osteopath if you have similar issues and would like to try it.
Situation: When I was ~17 one night I slept kind of oddly twisted. I was kind of stretching my back and fell asleep and woke up with a sore neck. It stuck with me for years at some low level, massage would help a bit but it would never really go away. The pain was largely in the area where my neck and shoulders met, say around the size of a salad plate.
I woke up one morning when I was around 30 and it was so painful I couldn't sit up from a laying position to get out of bed. That's when I saw the Osteopath. A physician friend recommended I see them.
They gave me these "super ibuprofen" and isometric exercises, and literally it cured me basically immediately.
Solution: The exercise involves standing up straight, and using your hands to put opposing force against the different muscles in your neck. Your head needs to remain unmoved, neck straight, it was recommended that it be done in front of a mirror so you could make sure you weren't bending and remained straight.
Isometric exercises are exercises you do where your joints and muscles basically stay static. If you put your hands in front of you, like the praying position, and press equally with both hands, that is an isometric exercise. Lifting something is not.
In all cases you gently start pushing and gradually push harder, and similarly at the other end start pushing less hard until you are not pushing at all to end it.
The exercises were:
- Clasp your hands behind your head and oppose tilting your head back.
- Ditto on the front, trying to look down.
- Hand on one side if your head by your ear and try to tilt your head to that side. Ditto for the other side.
- Palm on your forehead and try to turn your head that direction. Ditto for the other direction.
Again: See a medical professional before you do such a thing, but in my case it solved a chronic upper back pain as if it were a miracle. Literally a decade of pain was gone after spending 5 minutes doing this. YMMV. On the other hand, my non-genetically related mother had terrible bone deterioration and several surgeries including cervical fusion and added metal bits to her back, and if she had tried these exercises she'd probably end up in the ER.
If this guy had spoken in tongues and pulled out chicken parts hidden in washcloths, while doing similar exercises on me, I would absolutely, 100% believe in psychic surgery. It was miraculous.
I ended up getting a Zero Gravity Recliner (used off of ebay) with the laptop tray attachment (also used). It saved me until I could get back to a standing desk.
I'm having trouble deciding if the construction and woodworking are excellent, terrible, or both :)
At first it looks really flimsy and jumbled together. But on closer inspection it seems more stable, and ultimately the proof of the pudding is in the tasting.
I don't understand the nasty comments about safety, it's 3 monitors not a guillotine. Props to the author for tinkering (and doing it with limited resources) instead of buying something new.
To one's own decapitation in the search for freedom and comfort!
I'm severely disabled from a back injury and I use this over my bed, with a vesa wall mount attached. I've also got a pair of joycons that I use as dual mice through steam
With a 25" wall mount arm attached to the side of the tower, the screen hangs right over my bed. It does take a bit of balancing though depending on the weight of the screen and computer. I've got a 27" monitor on the side with the longer legs, and a large desktop on the opposite side near the ground
Never run when you can walk.
Never walk when you can stand.
Never stand when you can sit.
Never sit when you can lay down.
Never lay down when you can sleep.
I've run something similar in the past [0]. My advice is, avoid having your hands too vertical above chest height for hours, as the lack of circulation will annoy you, and either get an Ergodox or a Rollermouse (but obviously not both).
I work laying down at least one day per week. Its particularly good for sessions of long project work.
Only a yoga mat, regular small couch cushions, and a small adjustable side table are required for my setup (to suspend my laptop from).
Personally I use a wacom tablet and split, vertically arranged keyboard (koolertron), but I dont think those are really necessary.
Touch typing is a must however, as you cant see the keys.
Each half of the keyboard rests on my upper thigh, with one end on the floor, so my arms are in a very natural position resting by my sides.
This setup alleviates all my back pain/tension, and is also easier on the tendons in my wrists and elbows. Working this way extends my maximum working days per week by at least one.
Not counting occasional meetings I work from home for 20 years already. I tried all kinds of chairs and discovered one thing. Nothing really works for me when spending much time in a chair. And even though I am fit my back did not really like the way of life and started to hurt. Finally I've got myself rowing machine and in addition to a regular physical activities I also row for an hour every other day or two. This has worked wonders for me. My back feels fine now and I have no problems whatsoever sitting at the regular desk. Come summer I let it go and swim in the open water instead to the same result.
Honestly glad that this guy is out there doing his thing but I wonder if his dating challenges (also discussed on the blog) might be somehow correlated with this setup...
Ive seen some laying down setups that looked great but is it healthy to lay down for too long? Second, doesn’t the blood pressure drop cause a cognitive drop as well? I become sleepy when I lay down. I did some work in bed and I think I napped twice.. While it is cozy and comfortable I dont think this is conducive to productivity unless the back problems dissapear temporaruly to allow the sufferer a respite with some better productivity
I started this journey because of neck pain. My posture has been pretty bad for neck pain, as I prioritized avoiding carpal tunnel. Now that I have a relaxed neck, I'm finding that I still get neck pain due to shoulder position. So having built a zero-g solution for my neck (i.e reclined with monitors still "in front" of my eyes), I am still working on shoulder and arm positions. I thought solving awful neck position would resolve the pain but it didnt. However, removing that problem now allows me to be sensitive to arm position, and all the times i'm using muscles to grab the mouse, or reach for a key.
My WIP involves a Zero G chair from relax-the-back, a sit-stand desk from which I mount the three monitors only, and a side table for the Mac. I dropped the $$$ on the chair because (a) it is motorized so I can change position throughout the day slightly, and (b) because if I ever have to go back to the office 100%, the chair is nice enough to put in the living room. The sit-stand desk allows moving the monitors up and down. Finally I have a couple of pieces of foam, with an MDF board glued on top for a workspace. The foam rests on the chairs arm rests, and now also two more side-tables just to support the foam. I use two magic keyboards, one for each hand (karabiner is required to make the cmd key etc work across keyboards)
It is a WIP. Step 1 was taking the load off my neck. I can now totally relax it during the day, with the result that I am now taller. Step 2 is taking the load of my shoulders. My second iteration has resulted in my elbows being slightly above my shoulders, so I'll be needing to get some thinner foam.
I'm in for about $5k so far, mostly the chair.
Will hopefully get to a writeup when it is 100% comfortable.
I assume what you built looks safe, and I absolutely don't wish any harm upon you. Still, why does a setup like this make me think of the contraption Thomas Midgley (the inventor of lead additives for petrol and CFCs) built?
Related: my friend Sascha is starting production of this design classic furniture piece[1] from his collection again:
I have one of the original prototypes in my flat and I've been sitting in it, while coding, 8-10hs every day.
Pretty much since the lockdown started here in Germany and throughout the rest of this year so far.
The reclining angle is fixed in three steps from 125-130-135deg which is ideal, pressure wise[2]. The legs are up so far that they won't fall asleep (your feet have to be under your heart, vertically, for that to 'just work').
It is one the most comfortable 'chairs' I know. Before the lockdown I never used it for working, only for reading or watching movies. When there's a sit-in at my place there's usually a fight for it among the guests.
It doesn't yet have any of the contraptions attached to it to make it into a 'lay-down desk' though.
I usually work with a laptop on my legs and for that it's absolutely fine -- as-is.
Sascha is now looking into designing an extension that allows mounting 1-3 screens and a keyboard/mouse/touchpad/Wacom combo. Just like the contraption in the linked article. :]
With the caveats: it will be structurally sound (he's an ex aerospace engineer) and -- assumedly -- beautiful too.
I'll try posting this on the front page once his shop goes live.
Whenever I've tried this angle of recline I've fallen asleep pretty quick.
The one thing I've always wanted to try though was face DOWN recline, like a massage parlor, approaching a sensory deprivation kind of experience. Again might need a lot of coffee beforehand though.
Would love to hear any reports from the daring adventurers who may have tried it. I think the blood flow to your arms might get weird, issue #1 ...
I was in the market for a desk and chair recently. Long story short: sitting at a floor table and on the couch all day was causing issues with my back and hamstrings.
I did look into the AltWork setup mentioned. At $7000 (or $4500 for manual option), it's quite expensive but not that bad if amortized over a 20 year period of working 8 hours a day. Investment in long-term health is worth it if the product works as it should and lasts the expected amount of time.
Aside from my wife not wanting it in our apartment (I understand), there isn't enough evidence that zero gravity workstations improve health versus just a good ergonomic chair (ie. an adjustable chair that fits your body) and desk (adjustable and gets low enough to support 90° elbow angle without hitting your legs). In all cases, one needs to take breaks to stretch and move around, not to mention daily exercise.
Went with a HM Embody (armless) chair and IKEA Skarsta hand crank desk instead; zero regrets and I wish I got them earlier (especially the Embody)!
They have magnet stickers you attach to the back of any keyboard (or mouse) and it'll work. My keyboard is kinda heavy so it needed like 10 magnets attached to it, but it's completely stable.
That said, for lying down, you really want a trackball mouse (the alternative is to dock the mouse when not in use, which is OK if you mostly use the keyboard for everything).
The only squeak I hear is if I sit down or get up from the chair and put the weight of my hands on the seat. No squeaking when just sitting in it, even when adjusting tension and recline.
When I was having RSI and back issues from so much sitting in my life, my research pointed me at 0g workstations very much in similar configuration to this combined with split keyboard and thumb trackballs, I came close to ordering one which would have set me back $2500 USD or more. Luckily, I managed to avoid having to go full WALL-E with massage and excercise.
This looks comfortable, but I wonder if I'd actually be productive in this. I tried sitting on an exercise ball for a while for posture, and it definitely was a small nagging distraction. I find I'm 95% equally productive with a standing desk, but I have noticed that when I'm embarking on a couple hours of focused work, I lower it to seated.
I have a similar desktop with a standing desk that can go quite low + good gaming/office chair that I have approximately at desk height. My monitor is on an arm so it's a bit more than an arm's length away from me and at eye level. I have my feet on the table and the keyboard (made out of one piece with a hand rest) in my lap. Can't say exactly about productivity, but I really enjoy working this way.
You get the largest screen you can afford (use it at a low resolution) Put it on the wall just under the ceiling.
Put a stack of books under the legs of the bed. This is an art in it self. If you gradually increase the angle eventually you slide down. Train the legs to "stand" like this and gradually increase the angle by tiny amounts. This way it magically qualifies as a zero effort leg exercise. (my legs got huge muscles from it)
Get thick curtains to make the room pitch dark. Switch off the lights, adjust the themes and dim the screen to the point you cant see anything on it anymore without getting used to the dark for 5-15 min. This will allow comfortable naps while coding.
As soon as a task feels complicated take a nap. It is hilarious to wake up and see absolutely nothing besides text on the screen.
“ Beautiful, isn't it? It took me half a lifetime to invent it. I'm sure you've discovered my deep and abiding interest in pain. At present I'm writing the definitive work on the subject. So I want you to be totally honest with me on how The Machine makes you feel.”
I had to re-think "desks" after breaking my collarbone two months ago, and spent a lot of time in my make-shift couch lay-down desk. While I had full control over my lower arm and hand, moving my upper arm and shoulder was painful. The only position I could stay in for extended periods of time was laying down, and I needed to find a way to use both hands without shoulder pain.
On day 2, I discovered that I could spend hours lying flat on the couch with my legs propped up with cushions and a laptop on my 45deg legs. In that position, I could use the computer two handed for extended times as if I didn't have a broken collarbone.
Coming into the office to work (as COVID has been eradicated in my part of Australia) was harder since more than 20mins in an upright position (chair or standing) caused my shoulder to ache.
It took me a couple of weeks to work this out, but I ended up using a large upright shaped bean-bag as my office chair. I could mold the beanbag to give my arm support and sit the more reclined position that re-leaved aches. Having an Ikea standing desk helped, as I get into the bean bag and then lower the desk to match.
It's healed enough now to use regular chair and standing desk, but I learnt a lot about me and desk positions.
My main conclusion (after 15years of having a coding job) is that variation is key. There is no magic seating or standing position. Even if there was, it would be become uncomfortable eventually.
While probably the worst seating position for my back and posture, I have kept the beanbag chair at work, because using it occasionally feels good.
And, when at home I have continued to use the lying flat on the couch position, because again, it's different to how I usually use computers.
Which brings me to my main thought on this project (which I love the idea of): It's too permanent. I'm sure it'll feel amazing and comfy for a few days (or even weeks), but at some point for my body, it'd become just as annoying and uncomfortable as a regular desk.
This is the biggest question I have. This, to me, doesn't function as a desk because of the incline. It has the potential to be a remarkably comfortable means to use a desktop (or perhaps laptop if you built in a way to mount it), but without a way for me to sit my coffee on it, or to put a notepad somewhere and not have to worry about it sliding off.
I know you can build in mounts for that stuff, but I think there's a lot of value in how dynamic desk surface is. Need 2 notepads so you can see things side by side? Cool, put it on the desk. Working on 2 laptops today, because you got a new one? Cool, put it on the desk.
I wonder if you could find a way to to make things stay put. Anything sticky would get all over your arms. Velcro seems usable if you put the soft side on the desk, but it's ugly. You could maybe use magnets that you embed into your stuff to increase the friction enough that they don't slide. Won't help with tea, but it should work for most other things. Modern monitors and computers without magnetic hard drive are okay with magnets, right? (I can't say for sure)
(I hope this isn't too off-topic, but since we're talking about computer desks that accommodate unusual sitting positions...)
Has anyone found a good solution for positioning a mouse and keyboard in front of yourself while sitting on a recumbent exercise bike?
My primary use case is exercising while gaming. I can somewhat get by when playing mostly-mouse turned-based strategies; I put a table next to my bike and use the mouse on that. But it's not good to keep my shoulder at that angle for so long, and I'd like to also play games that require active use of the mouse + keyboard.
So far I haven't found a good match on the market. I could build one myself, but TBH I'd rather not spend the time right now to iterate on the design.
You could use a keyboard tray with an articulating arm, assuming you find some way to mount it to your bike. Humanscale makes nice ones, which can often be found at steep discount on ebay.
Thanks for the idea! I went to their website but didn't see any good matches. I've emailed them asking for suggestions and now I'm waiting to hear back.
Those unfortunate enough to have injuries have similar desks, I have a journalist friend with very bad RSI or whatever you call it these days: she can't work fast any more but it let's her rest and apparently it's the easiest on her wrists.
The best lay down desk for a vim based programmer is to have a good mattress and a split keyboard, one half of the keyboard on each side of your body with arms unbent down by your sides, and then monitors suspended above you facing down.
The speed at which you can get out of device to answer the door is often overlooked. You can do something much easier. Recliner next to wall mount tv angled down. Keyboard on lap, mouse on PC next to chair, or roller mouse under keyboard on a cutting board. Hotglue, or velcro, or blutack to attach to board.
> I can't use a mouse anymore, as the mouse would fall down, I'm probably going to replace it by a trackball
Apple Magic Trackpad 2 with velcro on bottom. Even a vertical mouse could work too. Else something which ensures mouse doesn't drop (foam, cord not too long, a holster to store it, or something magnetic perhaps).
What is the effect of such a desk going to be on blood flow? Does this increase chance of hemorrhoids?
I'd just use a hangmat with a MBP for a simple lay down desk. More modular and less work. Or a bed + laptop; what I currently use for remote work. More out of necessity (noise and space constraints) though.
When I daydream about something like this, it is so that I can keep my hips straight (the way they are when people are standing or lying flat).
In my daydream, I am lying flat "on" ("against"?) a board, as if lying on a bed, but the board is at an incline of about 45 degrees. The board is of a slippery material like formica to make it easy for me to get on and off it, which makes it important for there to be a "ledge" at right angles to the board for my feet to "stand on"("rest against"?) so I don't just slide down the incline.
I would look into t-slot aluminum extrusions if you wanted to do a v2. It can be ordered pre-cut and pre-drilled from multiple vendors at various price points. And would make teardown/setup much easier.
The mouse is located on the armrest (I don't need to use it too often), and the keyboard (a heavy and thus stable one) is on my lap (I don't need to look at it while typing).
I'm not sure if it's just me getting old, but I find that if I look at a screen while laying down (especially mobile, because typically that's the only type of screen I can use while laying down) for more than a few minutes, I start getting a headache/migraine. As I got older, I have to follow a general rule of sitting in a proper desk and chair to use screens. Anything else doesn't really work for me.
I found standing alone to be unpleasant so i found a "leaning chair" that allows me to slightly lean back as I stand. I do that 80% of the time and sit 20% of the time.
The leaning chair is basically a waist-high wall that you lean against. It does help me to better tolerate standing all day. Only downside is that it can hurt my knees if i don't use it correctly.
My friend who has to keep his legs raised due to a health problem will love this.
That said, working from home i sit less in front of the computer. That's because i can read something walking around or whatever, and there 's no reason to "look busy". I also find that a simpler immobile chair with no armrests keeps me more refreshed.
If I were to build something, I would want it to be continuously moving in such a way that my body was not getting into fixed positions for a long period of time yet maintaining a pretty good posture. Perhaps I can program different sets of movements, yet the movements wouldn't be so distracting and I couldn't do my work.
I just wound up having open surgery and this would be amazing to have around right now. I was actually thinking of something like it last night. Great stuff and really could be useful for the people who for various reasons need to remain in a lying position beyond that it looks like it was a lot of fun to build.
I thought about this same idea for a long time like 5 years ago. From hanging a monitor from the ceiling with string, to complicated wood framework such as the author. I finally realized that you can get about 90% of the way with a simple "medical table" ($50 on amazon) and a normal la-z-boy recliner.
I love the innovation in this project! The brain power used and the experimenting involved is awesome, plus the physical component. There is a kind of "high" that comes from hands on work.
I couldn't use this for any long time period, but each to his own.
Cool!
If I build (or buy) something like this I would just keep admiring it for days rather than focusing on my work.
A great work from home setup should just disappear and should not be a distraction between you and the work!
I hurt my back recently and moved a monitor to the top shelf area of a kid sized desk with a keyboard and mousd. This converted it to a standup desk. If I sit down I have another monitor and keyboard ready to go.
Reminds me, when we were working on a start up on my apartment I had a reclinable sofa. It was actually very comfortable. The problem was that any person who seated there would fall a sleep after five minutes.
I am interested to know if this will have any impact on a person’s sleep. It’s my understanding that the laying down position is best reserved for sleep and sex, else you risk disrupting your circadian rhythm.
If you sand the corners round and apply some spray shellac, it would look much more 'complete' and less "something I whipped together in the garage in a weekend"
damn this setup seems --way-- too complicated. if you want to lay down and work why not just use a couch or beach chair and a laptop? alternatively, a bed and some pillows works fine, too. i work from home and i mostly only use a desk if im falling asleep, in which case -- im using a standing desk. the rest of the time im in bed resting on some pillows and going over tech stuff. prob not the healthiest life-style but i find desks super uncomfortable and hard to focus. ops setup seems insane to me
Why reinvent the bed?
All you need for a lay down desk is a 12 inch orthopedic foam wedge and a laptop tray. Both readily available in Amazon. I've been working this way for years.
My intuition is that as people's standard of living improve, bedding is one of those things that gets easily overlooked when you can't afford it but is somewhere investing some "real" money returns a good result.
I went from using the bed from my parents' house (which was a hand-me-down) to a dorm bed (briefly) to the absolute cheapest thing I could get my hands on that wasn't stained brown or covered in bugs. It wasn't until I was relatively successful and making ~$80k / year that I felt like it was reasonable to invest in a nice mattress, and even then, I came to the conclusion that the "mattress store" beds were way overpriced and had little to differentiate them.
I ended up with a memory foam bed off Amazon. It was ~$200 for a queen and I've had it for about five years. The biggest issue I have with it is that the fabric seems to take stains more readily than my previous mattresses. Comfort-wise, I'd put it on part with a $1,500+ "mattress store" brand, so I'm happy replacing it every few years and passing my old one on to someone who doesn't have a decent one. In fact, it's getting to be about that time...
Honestly I just sometimes want a clamp with a flexible sturdy arm, like one of those workbench lamps, to suspend my laptop above my bed. Pretty cool work nonetheless!
Cool but work performance will take a hit because less blood flow will go to the front of the brain. You need a lay down desk with your front facing at the ground.
I find the lounge position very comfortable for working. It requires a laptop, but it's way easier on my back which improves my energy levels and focus.
the thing is, why should it professionals be constructing their own ergo desks out of poverty. most professions that have physiological risks have the employer provide the safety gear... still stuff like this is getting expensive. im buying my sitting/standing desk second hand. still about 400E.
I think it depends on the employer - mine has no issues getting ergonomics like a standing desk or a wrist saving mouse/keyboard. They even upgraded my home office setup when COVID happened. Though I would admit that 11k lying desk with actuators will probably be a no :D
There is a chinese thing called Fung Shui. Which says this is very bad Fung shui, it doesn’t make you feel good when you look at it, and probably will hurt you
For anyone seeking further clarification, this is the difference between "lie", an intransitive verb (takes no object) and "lay", a transitive verb which takes an object.
So, you lie in bed, but you lay something down.
The two different verbs tenses are confusing though:
lie, lay (past), lain (past participle). You lay in bed last night or had lain in bed.
lay, laid (past and past participle).
Also, to get laid is something that often happens while lying in bed. And of course, lie has multiple meanings, and people will sometime lie to get laid and then lie in bed to do so.
As someone who shares bloak's sentiment, there's two different verbs, lay and lie, and pointing out the difference is a hill worth dying on. (I doubt bloak is actually upset. It's mock outrage.)
Edit: I was actually confused by the title of the submission which is illustrative of the distinction between the two words.
To me, a lay down desk is a desk that can be laid flat, and that's what I thought this was going to be. Some kind of desk that could be easily collapsed to make space.
Whereas, a lie down desk is a desk you lie down to use.
True, there aren't transitive and intransitive versions of stand, but since desks stand by default, you can make assumptions about what a standing desk is.
I really was not expecting a lay down desk to be something you lie down to use.
That's a good way to utterly ruin your back. Muscles atrophy if you don't use them. If you don't get up all day, absent supplemental exercise you'll screw up your back in a few months.
In an attempt to be more of the former than the latter, if the string or especially that strut sheer off of their mounts, that whole contraption is slamming down. Your groin is pretty well protected, but you can still catch that upper bit in the teeth. Figure out how far stuff should move and add stops to keep it from going a hair farther. Replace most of the nails with bolts (beware of end grain, which can split, in which case nail/bolt makes little difference).
Aside: My personal favorite trick that doesn't get used enough is eddy currents. If something has to move easily but not too quickly, a piece of aluminum, copper (or I think non-ferrous steel?) and a rare earth magnet will decrease the terminal velocity of the moving bit. You still take a hit, but you might walk away from it.