> that's not what they were intending and you know it
Yes, I took the more charitable interpretation of what they said (that it was specifically about minors) and devoted the vast majority of my comment to talking about that. I spent maybe one or two paragraphs total talking about adult transitioning.
And yet, even under that charitable interpretation, saying "we should not be operating on healthy tissue" is an argument that sounds good but falls apart as soon as you try applying it to the real world and the numerous non-essential medical interventions that are supplied to children.
I am trying to be charitable in my takes, but "chopping off their reproductive organs because of a fad" is not an insightful characterization of the current debate. It grossly oversimplifies the full spectrum of medical intervention for transgender youth, and (again) ignores the reality that medical interventions for psychological/social/internal maladies, including interventions based on the possibility of future psychological/social problems, are not exclusive to transgender youth.
no. it is simple. a young boy cannot "feel like a girl" because they have no idea what that feels like, that is not a thing. you are just you. get comfortable.
all of this nonsense has lead to mass depression, anxiety, obesity, etc. go outside, get some exercise, have a reason to live, get some sun, etc.
To be blunt, I think you're honestly kind of proving my point. In order:
1. "Chopping of their reproductive organs" is itself not an accurate representation of the full spectrum of transgender care. A nontrivial portion of transgender people never get bottom surgery, and certainly bottom surgery is not the primary focus of the majority of bills being passed right now about transgender care for minors (many of which go beyond banning medical interventions and ban even non-medical gender-affirming counseling).
It's a gross oversimplification of gender-affirming care for minors to focus purely on the rarest and most invasive intervention possible, a procedure that many transgender people will never undertake in the first place.
2. "~30% of girls think they're boys" is not an accurate representation of that study. 26% of teenage girls reporting "some change in their gender identity" does not mean that they suddenly completely flipped genders. Your description misses the subtleties of how many people talk about gender identity and gender fluidity.
3. > it is simple. a young boy cannot "feel like a girl" because they have no idea what that feels like, that is not a thing
There is a lot to unpack here, so I'm just going to say that's not a great description of either transgender identity or gender dysphoria (remember, they're not necessarily the same thing). I think this is a giant oversimplification and misrepresentation of the transgender experience.
It's also (not to be too nitpicky) kind of an oversimplification of the cisgender experience? But that could be a long conversation.
4. > go outside, get some exercise, have a reason to live, get some sun, etc.
This is a massive oversimplification of mental health care in just about every category from depression to gender dysphoria. You can not cure gender dysphoria by getting more sun. Even in situations where gender dysphoria can be either alleviated or partially mitigated with counseling, what's going on in that counseling is going to be a lot more complicated than the happy-go-lucky/"natural" model of mental health that people sometimes propose nowadays.
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Again being as charitable as I possibly can, I am sure that there are people who are genuinely supportive of transgender rights but who still have concerns about medical interventions with minors, and there certainly are people who have medically transitioned who go on to regret it -- and yeah, of course I feel for those people, of course it would be good to improve our standards of care to minimize post-transition regret. But (again, thinking charitably) I imagine it's got to be pretty frustrating for the people with genuine concerns about youth counseling if every time they try and raise those concerns, they find themselves instantly surrounded by a bunch people saying that transgender youth all just have a vitamin D deficiency. Because that's just nonsense.
> it is simple. a young boy cannot "feel like a girl" because they have no idea what that feels like, that is not a thing
please dig more into this. you are tipping towards lunacy...
people will look back on removing breasts, inverting penises, etc. as we look back on phrenology, blood letting, lobotomies, etc.
> This is a massive oversimplification of mental health care
no. no it is not. please look at areas where they do not have even close to as much anxiety. getting exercise and socializing is extremely important for humans.
wash the dye out of your hair, take out half your piercings, and call your dad.
> no. no it is not. please look at areas where they do not have even close to as much anxiety. getting exercise and socializing is extremely important for humans.
Look, ultimately, we're in a public forum, and it's not my job to personally change your mind; it's my job to engage constructively and as insightfully as possible in a way that betters the conversation for other readers.
If this is your model on mental health care, then your comment speaks for itself and I think that other people on HN have enough information to come to their own opinions about whether you're qualified to talk about "social contagions."
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Purely in the interest of being as constructive as possible, this is a really harmful view of mental health, not because the interventions mentioned in the parent comment are useless, but because they are an oversimplification of a complicated problem. Exercise/diet/etc... can absolutely help with issues like depression, but those actions are usually taken alongside counseling and with aid, occasionally (but not always) in conjunction with medication. Psychological interventions and mental health interventions are multi-faceted and highly individual; there is no single easy universal solution that will work for everyone.
Like please, don't ever tell someone with depression that their problem would just be solved if they made more friends. Friends are important and can help in some situations, but that advice is not helpful. And similarly, while gender dysphoria is not exactly the same as depression, it is also a condition that is a lot more complicated than just whether or not someone has enough friends or exercises enough.
But again, I think in regards to the broader debate, I would just say that people who talk about psychological issues as if they're just dietary issues -- maybe those people aren't the best sources to get advice from about the proper treatment for transgender youth.
> So you disagree that exercise, socializing, etc. are extremely important for mental health?
Of course I don't disagree with that.
But with that I'm bowing out, I can't think of a better illustration of what I've been talking about then the parent comment. I think it's pretty obvious whether or not that comment is a fair characterization of anything at all that I said above.
And again, I would just suggest to readers that the type of logic that leads to someone mischaracterizing what I wrote about mental health so completely is also probably not worth paying attention to when it's applied to debates about transgender care.
You still aren't really understanding what gender dysphoria feels like, but you clearly have no want to actually understand. Your take on things like depression are also incredibly incorrect and damaging. Your position is one that can be argued effectively, and yet you are repeatedly resorting to strawmanning a very small portion of your opponent's argument.
Yes, I took the more charitable interpretation of what they said (that it was specifically about minors) and devoted the vast majority of my comment to talking about that. I spent maybe one or two paragraphs total talking about adult transitioning.
And yet, even under that charitable interpretation, saying "we should not be operating on healthy tissue" is an argument that sounds good but falls apart as soon as you try applying it to the real world and the numerous non-essential medical interventions that are supplied to children.
I am trying to be charitable in my takes, but "chopping off their reproductive organs because of a fad" is not an insightful characterization of the current debate. It grossly oversimplifies the full spectrum of medical intervention for transgender youth, and (again) ignores the reality that medical interventions for psychological/social/internal maladies, including interventions based on the possibility of future psychological/social problems, are not exclusive to transgender youth.