I'd like to say that as an American to your north, I think you're right to not come? Things are weird here presently, so I suspect you probably made the right call for a wide variety of reasons.
But also, I tire of the nationalist rhetoric wherever I see it. I'm tired of this idea that countries are anything more than a shared historical hallucination, and that we're all somehow different from one another. Or as my father often put it, "we all bleed red and we all shit brown." I never chose to be born here, and because I am sick (through no fault of my own) so called tolerant countries wouldn't have me. So I am stuck here.
Regardless, I get why you didn't come, I can't say I blame you, but I also am sick of these damn countries ruining things. Perhaps we should abandon the idea entirely and replace it with the spirit of brotherhood and respect for one's fellow human.
Have you spent any serious time with other cultures? Yes, we all have the same colored blood and excrement, and we have a lot of similarities. Yet at the same time, we are very different. England's traditional dignity culture (the virtuous man can overlook slights) is very different than Africa's honor culture (honor is zero-sum, and you must fight to maintain it), for instance. Japanese values and American values are frequently opposite (Japan values group membership, America values individuality; Japan honors someone by setting them apart, America honors someone by engaging with them.)
In an ideal world we could celebrate each other's differences. But trying to get rid of conflict by getting rid of national borders is naive. Why are the borders where they are? Generally because those are ethno-cultural boundaries. Nations that encompass multiple ethno-cultural groups tend to be somewhat unstable: for instance, Yugoslavia broke up violently, and Iraq has conflict between the Kurds and the rest.
This is not a support of nationalism (although I encourage patriotism, which is different), but "countries are [nothing] more than a shared historical hallucination" is just incorrect.
> Nations that encompass multiple ethno-cultural groups tend to be somewhat unstable
The US has been remarkably stable for a nation that encompasses multiple ethno-cultural groups. It may not continue to be so, but historically it has been a counterexample.
> England's traditional dignity culture (the virtuous man can overlook slights)
i’m english and i have no idea what you’re on about there mate.
are you talking about having basic tolerance for other people? that’s a pretty universal skill not exclusive to england.
> but "countries are [nothing] more than a shared historical hallucination" is just incorrect.
countries are mostly lines drawn on a map.
cultures, which i think is what you’re trying to get at in your post generally, differ everywhere to varying degrees.
dundee (where i currently am) has a different culture to glasgow, which has a different culture to edinburgh, which has a different culture to york, which has a different culture to liverpool, which has a different culture to manchester, which has a different culture to leeds leeds leeds, which has a different culture to oxford, which has a different culture to reading, which has …
the lines are imaginary.
(although yes i live on a massive island so there is a non-imaginary physical boundary where you have to get on a boat or a plane or a train to travel to here).
> are you talking about having basic tolerance for other people? that’s a pretty universal skill not exclusive to england.
You'd be surprised how it's not the case in most of the world. Heck, India has a caste system that Indians have now exported to areas where they're in numbers like California. Arabs have a tribal system that makes them suspicious of anyone not from the in-group. Russian Muscovites treat all of their fellow non-Muscovite countrymen like shit.
You're making rather sweeping generalizations. "Arabs" have, for most of the last 1400 years, been part of 3 MASSIVE states, which spanned from the farthest Atlantic coast of Africa to parts of what is now Pakistan. Not alliances. Actual single states.
Thats the very opposite of parochialism, xenophobia, suspicion or inward societal thinking (however one wants to describe it)
Amidst the destruction of all that SHARED history, and the arbitrary Sykes-Picot jigsaw imposed on "the Arab world", falling back to more local structures is an obvious, and in the grand scheme of things, temporary, defensive mechanism.
The very fact that despite 100 years of Western imposed Sykes-Picot madness, West Asia is still an intricate mosaic of multiple groups - that shows that traditionally the Arabs are WELL CAPABLE of working with those not in their, as you put it, "in group".
The Indian caste system, aka apartheid on steroids, is a horrid example which makes your point. You should have stopped there
"Thats the very opposite of parochialism, xenophobia, suspicion or inward societal thinking (however one wants to describe it)"
Though I am not an expert in Arabic history, Arab culture spreat through colonialism, had an extensive slave system, denied basic rights to religious minorities and the Islam religion feels superior to non - Islamic religion and atheism.
Many Arabs dont want to admit these problems which IMHO is the reason for their long term decline.
Oh come on. Now you're just parroting ignorant tropes. Actual students of history will inform you that, especially per the standards of the day (as any state should be judged), Arab Muslim states were probably THE MOST tolerant of their time.
As evidenced by how many different Christian denominations (more than in Europe) still existed throughout West Asia, under direct Arab Muslim rule, for over a MILLENIA.
Denied basic rights? Basic rights to minority Christian, Jewish & Zoroastrian groups was ENSHRINED in the very makeup of these states. Leaders of these communities had official roles & responsibilities reserved for them.
You simply don't know what you're talking about. You're taking a modern day story about "Arabs" & "Muslims", which is predominantly the result of 100 years of subjugation & being broken up by the West (& having Western vassals & elites imposed as ruling classes), added to the need to create unsavory impressions of them amongst Western populations in order to justify that.
And you're taking this mess & overlaying it over the previous 1300 years, without a single regard for the truth. Seriously, go get a genuine history book, or talk to a history professor who knows about the Arab & Muslim world, and then curl up in embarrassment...
"
Oh come on. Now you're just parroting ignorant tropes. Actual students of history will inform you that, especially per the standards of the day (as any state should be judged), Arab Muslim states were probably THE MOST tolerant of their time.
"
Ehm sorry as tolerant as e.g in India? Even in Europe Netherlands and Poland - Lithuania were very tolerant to religious freedom. But the Dhimmi system might be historically tolerant - Today is a oppressive system and orthogonal to religious freedom, as practiced by many Muslim and Islamist states.
"Denied basic rights? Basic rights to minority Christian, Jewish & Zoroastrian groups "
Maybe you just talked to Iranian Christians, Iranian Jewish or Atheist from Arabic countries. They might give a different clue.
" 100 years of subjugation & being broken up by the West (& having Western vassals & elites imposed as ruling classes),"
That's an excuse. No Western power force the Mullah regime to be so Islamist or the Islamic state to genocide Kurdish people. It stilled happened.
"you're taking this mess & overlaying it over the previous 1300 years, without a single regard for the truth. Seriously, go get a genuine history book, or talk to a history professor who knows about the Arab & Muslim world, and then curl up in embarrassment..."
Living in Berlin the city is fueled with people escaping from Islamic States. I take their word genuine.
But thank for the insight. In my opinion you can see a declining area how to react to critism. Many Americans deny their homes problem. So you do about the problems in Islam. But you what? There is a growing secular and anti islam movement in the Arabic world. Looks some people are smarter than you.
In any debate or discussion, if someone discusses historical behaviour stretching back a thousand odd years then that isn't refuted by only talking about contemporary anecdata.
OK, the usual half-baked Islamophobic propaganda, with all the usual dog whistles of that fake bandwagon. So drearily predictable. Keep on shouting at the wall.
I'd bet money I have more experience in this than you. Culture shock is very real (I've lived it), but culture's ain't countries and hell, I get culture shock when I go to the south here in America. It's just some old timey 1940s "we gotta keep these different cultures separated" nonsense. It's nationalism and racism (though it purports to be otherwise).
Things don't have to be this way, we choose them to and I'm getting awful tired of people keeping making the same choices over and over again because they think an imaginary line is somehow sacrosanct.
> I get culture shock when I go to the south here in America.
Or even from urban to rural areas.
> It's just some old timey 1940s "we gotta keep these different cultures separated" nonsense.
That's a huge mistake right there. Those who want to keep their culture should be free to do so, as long as they don't try to force theirs on others - that's a common and traditional American value which is now being attacked by both extremist segregationists and extremist pot-melters.
> It's nationalism and racism (though it purports to be otherwise).
You should learn what these words mean and stop purporting they mean something else.
> It's all made up. Even culture.
Bro, not only culture, the entire human civilization is made up. The issue is to make it good, not bad, but you seem to be all confused about it.
No, it's racism, because 9/10 times when someone says, "well these cultural differences are so vast" they really mean "I don't like people from that culture" which becomes "I don't like people from that country or who look like that."
Almost always. It's always the same thing. Fear of the outsiders and disdain for change. I'm not going to debate you on it, I'm just tired of hearing it.
And yet with all that experience you’ve still managed to come up with a conclusion which describes the exact opposite way humanity evolved and currently lives.
Naive. Countries are collections of different values. I don't, for example, want to enslave non-believers, nor do I want to own my wife, or have a government take everything I own. I don't want to live in a "theocracy" because those people are crazy.
I select where I live based on those values. Thinking, because we all "bleed red" that we're all the same is a recipe for loss.
Probably. As an American, I have to agree with you -- it's been the case for many years (WAY before Trump) that within 50 miles of our border, your rights go to wherever last year's snow went.
It's too bad so few people can say "My country, if right to be supported, if wrong to be corrected."
I think its funny that the top comment on the blog from ConcernedCitizen is a half troll, half serious, in exactly the same way Trump approaches everything.
Do you think they are trying to do a Trump voice as a joke? I can't even tell anymore.
We here in America have Fox News that drums up scary boogeymen to keep people fearing liberal California. The rest of the world has their equivalents, but instead of crime in California, it’s “you will be shot on sight at the airport when you enter the US”.
Not shot on sight but e.g. "being declined entry because you refused to unlock your smartphone to the customs officer". And then you have to fly back over the ocean.
America isn't special here, I guess every country treats non-citizens worse than citizens. But at least the trip back is usually shorter
I think you've misunderstood the idea. Tim Bray and the OP of this thread aren't afraid to visit the US; the key phrase used in the post is "as a matter of principle".
>there’s a significant risk of an extremely negative outcome. I have a family to support and really can’t afford that risk.
I can understand the principles and the bit of Canadian pride, but ultimately it's rather hyperbolic. Even on principle, the fact is Canada and the US are strong and long lasting allies with a very obvious power imbalance, and this sort of pouting over commentary is more fitting to members of an elementary school kickball team than a professional organization on the cutting edge of technology.
> the fact is Canada and the US are strong and long lasting allies
As historical fact, yes; but this is degrading in real time. As a Canadian, I can’t name a single family member, friend, peer or acquaintance who regards the U.S. as an ally. And on an official level, our PM has given multiple speeches, at Davos and elsewhere outlining Canada’s new status with respect to the U.S. In that void, Carney is actively seeking new economic and defence partnerships with Europe and others to replace the relationship that Canada and the U.S. previously enjoyed.
When one powerful neighbouring country repeatedly threatens your sovereignty it does predictable things to the ability to call yourselves “allies.”
How would US citizens feel about Mexico if it had 3 billion people, 20x the military size, a history of annexations, and a deranged president joking about annexing the US? Still funny?
This is a naive response to the concerns Tim has expressed, and displays a deep lack of critical thinking around how the decline of the US' status in the world is impacting it's role as the home of "cutting edge technology".
That's probably correct,because I really don't see it, it's not like Canada can just move to Europe or something. They don't really have much of an option and neither does Europe for that matter. Is Canada going to let China have a military base or some other drastic measure?
> But there’s also the issue of entering the US; if I roll up at the border and am asked to disclose my social media output, there’s a significant risk of an extremely negative outcome.
Its no longer the question of supporting "terrorists", we have seen what people can critcizing Trump, the dear leader, might have to go through.
Trump is are destroying American credibility all over the world and its others who are being hyperbolic?
Your naivete is the reason America will decline. You guys, well-intentioned and optimistic as you all are, are the frogs in the boiling pot, unaware of how much America has declined in the global eye. Fun fact, America ranks below China and even Russia in the latest perception polls.
Without you guys taking action in your country, there is no hope for America.
THIS IS NOT A PLACE OF HONOR.