I'm sure this is gated by where you work (especially by how technically savvy your manager is), but the most effective contributors at my job tend to be the ones with near-zero (or sub-zero!) net LoC.
LLMs are prolific and they love to add shit. Truly capable engineers are able to achieve more business outcomes with less code / fewer moving parts.
"Truly capable engineers are able to achieve more business outcomes with less code / fewer moving parts"
I'd simplify to "Truly capable engineers are able to achieve more positive outcomes" - half of what makes a capable, dependable engineer is knowing what outcomes are needed and making them happen.
I really can't agree with this. Sure pure LoC is a bad metric. But there is a correlation between output and LoC. Outside of a very senior developer, maybe a Principal or Lead that is spending all day in architecture meetings and reviewing PRs, most high performers are also outputting code.
> Most of us work for business and on teams where performance matters.
It truly does:
performance – the action of entertaining other people by dancing, singing, acting, or peformative coding
The problem is, that shouldn't matter. If you work somewhere it does, well, you probably have to. But that's OK, it doesn't stop you from working to uplift the goal and conversation and deliverables, through these other definitions of performance:
performance – how well a person, machine, etc. does an activity
Now we get into how to define well, but activity, looking busy, may not be as valuable as outcomes.
performance – how well a person, machine, etc. does a piece of work
This is getting close, but here we need to define the nature of work, the qualia of work. It's not how well someone codes a line of code, or how well someone programs a piece of software. It's not even how well the engineer a solution.
What matters is return on equity, meaning: how well does what is delivered enable the business to turn capital investment in bringing ideas into being, into returns on that capital.
For good measure (pun intended), track long term, so resilience, maintainability, and evolvability, and really any ongoing costs, including delay costs, opportunity costs, or cash flow costs, are part of the definition of how well.
That matters.
Note this can be shorthanded to both GPT and Claude, and will change the machines’ suggestions.
Dunno about you but I work for a "business" (large company, you've heard of it) and the concept of "High Performer" is synonymous with "best politician". Sure, a lot of theater goes into things, especially dances around "data points", but at the end of the day the top tier goes to the fortunate sons.
You should not treat it as fact that "performance" of an individual, not a team is a thing that actually exists in any way that matters and is measurable.
I’m not sure that there is a consistent definition for matters in this context. What matters is completely subjective to an individual. Furthermore, performance is rarely correlated with success and compensation in an enterprise. I could just as easily say that playing the game is what matters.
if you're trying to use sloc as a proxy for productivity in any way, shape or form you've already lost the game.
i tend to find that the most productive teams make better decisions and work fewer hours. the quality of decisions is such a huge force multiplier that it renders actual hours worked almost an irrelevant variable.
Good code is absent code
LLMs by nature work like autocomplete on steroids. They're always trying to write more than necessary to please the prompt. Seniority now is measured by the ability to break down a task so that the agent doesn't even think to drag in unnecessary abstractions
The most effective contributors at your job remove more code than they add? That doesn't sound effective that sounds like digging ditches to fill them. Every line of code removed is a line that was previously added.
We had a library written by a former employee who was a prolific producer of code. He insisted we needed it and spent over a year developing it in company time.
The library was a masterpiece of what if driven development. It was about 50k LoC, and it had 300k LoC of dependencies. It was a nightmare to modify. And no one wanted to take over maintenance so people would submit PRs to the former employee when they did modify it.
I wanted to change something in the library to support a large migration I was in charge of. When I went digging it turned out that we were barely using any of the features in the 2 years since he’d finished it. I replaced the 50k LoC library and 300k LoC of dependencies with 300 lines in less time than it would have taken me to modify the library (a few days).
Turning inefficient, unreadable code into efficient, readable code often results in an overall reduction in LoC.
High-quality code and high-volume code are highly anti-correlated. Incidentally, low-quality code that is excessively long just so happens to be common complaint with AI-generated code.
How so? Let's say that over a year, a given section of code needs to be read and understood once a month. Taking some time to keep the code succinct and free of distraction will increase productivity all those occasions, as well as the rest of the lifetime of the system. Say the next decade.
Written exactly like that, yours is obviously cleaner.
But, if that original code had comments and traceability of each condition and return to a specific domain scenario, you would be doing a disservice by collapsing it to the one flat boolean expression. In that case, it may be better in its expanded form, and you should let an optimizing compiler do the collapsing.
If there were comments for each conditional, it should still be refactored as
return a || b // comment 1
|| c // comment 2
// long comment 3
// on multiple lines
|| d;
Many years ago, "lines of code" was the classic example of nonsense management metrics. Today, there are somehow HN users who argue that lines of code is indeed a good metric and ask "But what if the code had comments?" as if they have never seen comments interleaved with code.
> In that case, it may be better in its expanded form, and you should let an optimizing compiler do the collapsing.
This is nonsense. This optimization is not about compiler optimization for efficiency. It's an optimization for human readability and maintainability.
FWIW, I'm no advocate of "lines of code", or really any KPIs at all. All I'm saying is context matters.
Such branches could make sense if the conditions have to do with underlying domain concepts, but you expect the outcomes to be revised. It could just be a moment-in-time accident that they are all returning True right now.
This kind of tension is also where you often see indirection via configuration files or other auxiliary data structures. Or in the old days, things like bit fields instead of booleans, so that merging the conditions would encode different small integers to use as lookup table indices.
That's still going to make it hard to read. I'd have one big comment above talking about the different cases and then one line of code. Even with the slightly higher risk of getting code and comment out of sync. But that context switch between code and comments you need when you read this one return are pretty awful.
Right, and do you spend so much of your time doing that your net LoC is negative? If that's the case it implies people are writing code only for other programmers to clean it up. Programmers solving a problem created by programmers. That's dysfunctional. Effective engineering as I see it would be putting the processes in place to prevent having to constantly rewrite code.
> That doesn't sound effective that sounds like digging ditches to fill them. Every line of code removed is a line that was previously added.
Because they were added doesn't mean they were needed and even if the same person added and then removed them, it doesn't mean they are digging ditches to fill them.
The idea that "I would have written a shorter letter, but I did not have the time" also applies to code, and sometimes later you are blessed with more time than you had when implementing something under deadline pressure.
> Because they were added doesn't mean they were needed and even if the same person added and then removed them, it doesn't mean they are digging ditches to fill them.
Huh? If LoC weren't needed then adding them was unnecessary and a waste of time. Someone who is known at an organization for removing unnecessary code screams inefficiency to me. It's paying one person to create a mess then another to clean it up.
> Huh? If they weren't needed then adding them was unnecessary and a waste of time.
My previous reply already addressed this?
I can't help but think you are being purposefully obtuse if you can't acknowledge the concept of developers creating known (and hopefully temporary) technical debt due to various forms of deadline related time pressure or changing requirements.
Maybe it was temporarily needed, but the assumptions around it has changed and now it's unneeded. Then people built on top of that not understanding that they could simplify the whole system, and only later was that option discovered.
It's all about YAGNI. Programmers try to be smart covering cases no one thought about, reviewer is happy that corner cases have been implemented, artificial tests report all good. But it's just more to read when you have to change the code.
I definitely agree with the GP, and the point is that most often someone else (or an LLM) added all those LOC that are removed to make the system sensible.
Thought experiment: if you can solve a problem with 100 lines of dependency free code, or with 10,000 lines of code that depends on hundreds of things - which is better?
There's an obvious answer of course. And that is the direction that these effective senior engineers move towards.
LLMs are prolific and they love to add shit. Truly capable engineers are able to achieve more business outcomes with less code / fewer moving parts.