A number of things happen with an epidural that are kind of a big deal.
1. The baby is affected by the epidural, which can result in several days of grogginess, increased difficulty in establishing breast feeding, etc.
2. There is a natural amnesia for the pain of childbirth. If you get an epidural that effect gets dropped. So there may be less pain, but the woman tends to remember it more clearly.
3. An epidural greatly limits the mother's range of possible positions and activities. For example squatting in a shower can be great for progress, but you can't do it if your legs don't work properly.
4. One intervention leads to another. An epidural slows the birthing process, and massively increases your likelihood of further interventions. In the linked article, the woman wound up with a C-section. The odds of that happening would have been considerably less if there had not been an epidural. (Even so, if there is no fetal distress, why the hurry to have a C-section if that had not been discussed? Before the childbirth they should have had a birthing plan, and the doula should have known the mother's wishes and defended them. That's what she's there for...)
That said, natural childbirth is incredibly difficult and not always possible. If a woman wants and is capable of having a natural childbirth, my hat is off to her. But women shouldn't be pushed to do that if they don't want to.
Exactly. When people ask about the two home births we had, they often respond with "oh no, but what would you have done if things went wrong? How could you do that to your kid? What if there were complications??"
People just refuse to realize that so-called complications that were not pre-screened by a midwife or doctor happen BECAUSE you have a hospital birth. We then get told "my friend just gave birth and the baby was not breathing, thank god they were at the hospital!". Of course these mothers usually get epidural, which shut down their body, leading to prolonged births (doctors LOVE to wait for you to push:), suctions, etc. Impatient doctors cause far more complications and put more babies in danger than a midwife assisting a true home birth.
I have no opinion (and have not done research on) whether low risk births are safer in the over-medicalized environment of a hospital, or the less medically prepared environment of a house.
I do have strong opinions on people who try to encourage others to have home births without having those people screened for risk factors that indicate that a hospital is needed. Because when things go wrong in childbirth, they tend to go wrong fast. Historically a lot of women died that way. In today's world where many women have children late, have complicating conditions like diabetes, etc, there are a lot of potentially valid reasons to not give birth at home.
(My wife had two natural births in a hospital setting. As an MD who had done her research, she felt strongly about the advantages of natural childbirth. Again as an MD, she was well aware that her risk factors meant that she needed a hospital.)
> We had debated the decision of receiving an epidural a great deal because some believe it’s not a “natural birth” if you get an epidural and I’d put us at a midrange granola level with our lives in general, but we decided that for us, for her, it was the right thing to do.
I'm also confused. Is this a decision that is made as a couple?
Haha, I've never heard such a notion, that pain relief should be co-decided by the woman's partner. I certainly never presumed to have any input in that.
- baby's heart rate was of concern to your doctor
- no progress for several hours
- baby pooped
- your wife had fever during labor
- baby and mother now have an infection
- c-section
- big commotion, no communication with the wife
And people still think epidural is a normal part of child birthing?
On top of that - this couple will go on to tell other parents how lucky they were that they gave birth at the hospital! Yet this whole thing happened BECAUSE they thought child birth is a medical event. It's not.
They inject chemicals into a mother about to give birth and then say - well, baby doesn't want to come out, must do c-section (read: doctor wants to go home, doesn't want to rub olive oil around the vagina, let's cut her up).
I feel sorry for mothers who give birth at hospitals. Stories such as these make me so mad. People have no clue.
Yes, laypeople have no clue...except those who have been trained for years, both theoretically and practically, in medicine. Child birthing is a natural event, but so is dying from cancer. Does that mean one should eschew chemotherapy and radiation treatment?
Hospitals are not where mothers are supposed to give birth. They are constantly rushed to get the baby out, doctors are terrible at patient management and very quick to suggest chemical interventions, are very happy to use suctions to get the baby out and go home early, etc. 100,000 people die every year in the US from infections contracted during hospital visits, completely unrelated to the original reason for the visit. Why would you want your infant child in that sick environment?
As for cancer, ignoring the fact that you compare it to child birth, it's completely natural. We all have cancer cells in our bodies at various times. Weak, unhealthy bodies do not know how to fight it, hence the so-called cancer breaks out so to speak. And you're correct that there are many other treatments to consider before traditional methods, but I'll get downvoted for speaking, so why bother.
Only if you say stuff without bothering to back any of it up with evidence, so people can tell if you're getting your information from a real source, or Alex Jones, Natural News, and that merry band of lunatics.
Potocin and an epidural are not treatments. C-sections are emergency procedures and should only be done in emergency and high risk situations. Unfortunately, they are the norm now.
The problem is not C-sections and epidurals. The problem is that both are sometimes unecessarily given without much thought and for non-emergencies.
I'm extremely thankful we were at a hospital when my wife had an emergency c-section. I'm quite sure modern medical facilities and capabilities contributed significantly to us having a healthy baby.
tinok - way to make presumptions about our preparation for birth, what my wife's medical history was, the research we did, our conversations with a close friend who is a midwife, my wife's predisposition to extreme pain, and what we've been telling others since having the baby. For you and others in this thread, home births may be the choice you make. A denial of any sort of frugs may be your decision as well. That's great. We decided a hospital environment was more appropriate for us.
To me the decision of how you want to deliver your baby that you and you alone conceived is as personal as religion, abortion, and numerous other topics which I believe people should be left to make their own decisions about. The quick fire judgments of absolute strangers proselytizing from up high should be checked at the door.
Congratulations. Nothing you have ever done will prepare you for what follows. Protip: Babies that have issues with sleeping sometimes benefit from loud background noises being played. This due to them being used to all of the noises being produced by their mother's internal organs. You can try putting a radio off a station (for the whitenoise) and raising it to 11. Or maybe a vacuum cleaner. With my child, the radio worked like a charm.
Why is it that nearly everyone who has children feels the need to impart birthing advice on expectant parents, and child-rearing advice to new parents?
The only advice I give now is to ignore all the advice everyone else gives.
Because we as humans share our life's experiences with one another. It's how we learn and grow and become better as a whole and as individuals. If I can share something I've experienced with someone else and it even has a remote chance of helping them deal with something I found difficult - I will do it.
This is why many of us are here on HN. To learn and grow, to gain insights from those who have had experiences that we may have in the future.
The advice I will give is to accept advice graciously and consider it. It is all an advice-giver can ask.
Child-rearing? Yeah, I wish someone would have told me about that trick before I had to endure almost three months of almost no sleep (due to the baby crying).Having a child is stressful as fuck. Just trying to help others going through that phase.
Probably because they feel they've succeeded at something really difficult (which is true) and want to show off to the newbies. Coders will do the same thing, but it's not as grating in that context because coding is not something that everyone is capable of doing.
You may think you're a great father, but I don't know you. You're a stranger to me. I don't have any reason to believe you're any better than the last 20 people who tried to offer me contradictory unsolicited advice on how I should raise my children.
There is at this point no faster way to get in my bad books than to put your nose in my affairs and tell me how to raise my children when I didn't ask you to.
Maybe I misinterpreted your question. My answer was to a question more along the lines of "why do parents talk about parenting all the time?" If the person offering advice is being a dick about it (be it about parenting or anything else), then sure, it's inappropriate. But at the same time I remember when my first was born, I was pretty darn receptive to advice because _I had no idea what I was doing_. I'm less receptive now because half a decade in I think I have a decent handle on things, but I'm still not hostile about it -- I generally smile and nod and ignore (which, come to think of it, is what I do whenever anyone offers me advice I don't need).
Just experienced this a month ago as the man as well. "Intense" is the only reasonable word I could possibly use to describe the experience. I can't even imagine going through it from the other side as a woman and, oh man, the things we leave out when educating people about giving birth. Fatherhood is pretty cool so far though!
Wow, so much to resonate with. I'm reading this to pass the time while my fiance is measuring her contractions. We're due today. We were lucky to have four 2-hour educational sessions that went through all the various scenarios and what the options (and consequences were) - hopefully everything goes smoothly.
It's probably not the actual birth experience that resonated so much - it was the way the disconnected expectation and sense of intangibility about the lead-up to the birth that was well written. It is/was hard for me to explain to others why I wasn't overtly excited (I am, but in an internal way). Good to hear that others feel this way too.
Have you thought about fertility and genetic counseling? (apologies if you already have, I realize this is a very personal and sensitive subject). For what it's worth, my parents conceived twice before I was born, both miscarriages, yet I turned out alright.
I've done everything you can think of and more. We actually conceived once, it was a miscarriage.
Edit: if you really want to know, we fertilized a total of 19 embryos in 4 attempts over the years. Only two of those were deemed implantable by the PGD (preimplantation genetic diagnosis) and both failed to implant. Each time it was a two-week wait between implantation and learning about the failure, knowing that there was a 50/50 chance.
Imagine flipping a coin that will be up in the air for two weeks. It cost you $20k, dozens of injections, tests, trips to the clinic, and general anguish to earn that coin toss.
Sorry to hear about all of your troubles Diego. Wishing you the best and hope it works out at some point. I've had quite a few friends go through the very same thing (fertility treatments, miscarriages) -- such difficult experiences.
Does trying and failing to conceive create a job-like mentality to sex life? I know it's personal.. but for an aside sex as a task happens to a lot of relationships, without these troubles. Sorry for your troubles.
Awesome account of the birth and experience. Thanks for sharing and going into detail about such intimate moments. We had both of our kids at home via midwife, but the experience obviously has similarities to the hospital. Our second was breech and also did not make a sound at first. They warned us about that with breech babies but it was still very unsettling until she started crying -- as it was for you.
The last paragraph is perfect, couldn't have said it better myself.
Anyway. Good job on the kid. I'm 14, so I don't think I'm fit to give any sort of parenting advice or the like of it. Just enjoy the beauty of youth (and also try to endure much of the ugliness that tends to come with it).
Don't have kids. They will have far shittier lives, not to mention shorter, than yours, thanks to the end of cheap fossil fuels. They're also a hundred thousand dollar expense. Do not want!
I suppose most of you are so prone to optimist thinking and nurturing your biological urges you won't heed my call. Ah well.
Oh, and by the way, the current worldwide depression will never end.
While not as sensational, I did once buy into this line of reasoning when it came to procreation. Then I realized that we live in the most peaceful world that's ever existed, with the best medicine/life expectancy, most amazing technology, and with so much yet to discover and further improve life.
It's a copout. We're not optimistic, you're pessimistic and cynical. Let others choose the lives they want to live, with whom they want to live them because we only have this one life.
It may not mean much in the long-tail of human experience, but the moment you look into the eyes and hold your own child is one of the most amazing experiences I've ever had. I wouldn't trade it for anything.
Besides, it's a false dichotomy. Even rms knows that you can "have kids" without procreating. We have two adopted children — from the same mother — and believe me, you get the full experience. We were also lucky enough to be present for the births (I have unspeakable respect for those parents who foster or adopt older children), and we have kept up a relationship with the birth mother (who has three other kids).
Anyway, congratulations to the OP! But really — I thought this was going to be about "having a baby." Post again in the fall, sir, and then tell us about "having a baby." ;)
Yes, it's the most peaceful in absolute numbers. It's also the shittiest in absolute numbers. Subsidized by cheap, surplus energy, courtesy of ancient plant and dino matter.
Nobody has even come close at finding anything as useful as hydrocarbons. I bid you good luck. If he's < 5 he won't even have the chance as we're past the net energy peak from oil.
Having children is usually a selfish and/or conformist choice.
Many people have kids because that's what's expected of them, and because that's what all their friends and family are doing. They also usually hope to be less lonely with kids, have their kids support or take care of them when they're older, be able to mold their kids to be like them or further their goals, and have a sort of existence after their deaths through their kids, or even fix up their marriage by having kids -- all selfish reasons to have kids.
But the kids never asked to be born. As parents, you are essentially forcing life upon another being.
According to Silenus, "the best thing for a man is not to be born, and if already born, to die as soon as possible."[1]
This is not to mention the plague of overpopulation and all the resulting problems that unrestrained breeding has led to.
This kind of philosophy is baffling to me. How could anyone find it attractive, except for the perverse pleasure you get from trolling other people? And what kind of value is that to base a life on?
I don't know about there being no life at all, but we could start by having less kids, or at least having a deep second or third thought about it instead of it being the default direction a relationship should take.
Significantly fewer people having kids would sure take a load off this resource-scarce, overcrowded planet. It would help fight poverty, hunger, and war.
If you absolutely must have kids, here's to hoping that you'll at least do it for unselfish reasons -- such as that you sincerely hope (and intend to do everything you can to ensure) that your child will improve the world in some way, rather than having a child for the selfish or conformist reasons I described in my earlier post.
I never really understood this. It wasn't natural for me to have surgery less than a month after I was born, either, but without it I'd be dead now.