> I don’t want to be alone, but I want to be left alone.
I have always suffered from this as well. Perhaps it is just a touch of introversion? I have a happy marriage and family but I often need time all to myself or I just get overwhelmed by the constant stimulus of...other people. I don't even necessarily do anything different than I would with my family, though I generally try to work on my own projects or study something interesting.
I think there's a difference between what Fry's describing and normal introversion. Normal introversion is "I just want to be left alone for a few hours", or at most, "I just want to be left alone this weekend". Introverts have normal need for community, they like being around people - they just can't stand to be around people too much, because it's energy draining for them. Fry seems to talk in terms of "I just want to be left alone this lifetime."
There're a lot of personality traits that are perfectly normal over the short term that become pathological over the long term. Sadness, for example - he describes how before medication he would consider suicide daily, while now he can still feel sad, but it doesn't feel like this all-consuming ever-present companion. Anger too: it's normal to get angry, it's not normal to be angry. And loneliness, and drive, and even things like hope or rationality.
I remember describing to my therapist that I have this tendency to get super-obsessed with whatever I'm working on and block out everything for a couple days so that I can concentrate on it. Her first question was, "Do you return to your normal life at the end of those few days, or do you feel like it consumes you until you finish it?" When I said I usually return to normal after a bit, she was like, "Maybe that's just a personality trait of yourself that you have to learn to accept." It's (generally) not pathological if it's temporary, if you feel you have a "self" outside of the trait.
> Fry seems to talk in terms of "I just want to be left alone this lifetime."
There is a struggle -- not speaking for him but for myself -- between wanting companionship and wanting to be alone. I think my default state is, "I just want to be left alone", but every so once in a while all of the alone-ness (not loneliness per se, but all of the quiet and solitude and introspection and stillness that accompanies prolonged periods of being alone) kind of piles up and becomes too much to bear, and then I need to connect in some way with someone for a little while.
But, only a little while.
And, if I don't get to make that connection, then loneliness sets in: the feeling that I am no longer alone by choice, but rather that there is something wrong with me, something that is off-putting to other people. Then, I begin to feel unable to connect to others.
It is a damnable thing. I have tried all manner of approaches to "managing" it, to make it less pathological, but in the end I simply loathe the company of other people right up until I suddenly am desperate for it -- where it's too late and too difficult to get it because I don't maintain friendships and relationships the way that other people do.
That's a great way of putting into words something I've been dealing with my whole life as well, thank you. I hope that maybe knowing you're not alone in how you feel towards people might be of some solace.
That pretty much exactly describes me as well. Maybe not quite to the same degree. But the swinging back and forth between "I really need to have a connection with someone right now" and "I don't want to be around people right now" is something I feel too. And the painful difference between being alone when you want to be alone, by choice, and being alone when you don't want to, because you don't have anyone to talk to.
As far as managing it, I can't say much. I've found that reading blog posts and forums about loneliness tends to make things worse (not really a surprise there), and getting involved in a coding project makes things better (again not too surprising). I think it helps to have a small number of closer friends rather than a larger number of less close ones, because closer friendships can more easily survive lapses in communication. As for how to make close friendships, I'm quite bad at that. My only advice so far is: have conversations about difficult topics.
I've been seriously introverted all my life. So much, in fact, I had to leave school and self teach.
I love it as a slightly crippling yet awesome feature, even though I've been told it's a flaw (I don't agree).
There are a few things that help me out in the lows:
- I have 2 close friends. To destroy these friendships, planet earth needs to be blown up. But I don't go out very often with them.
To maintain this, we play almost daily for about an hour, dota2 or whatever else floats our boat. And then, I just log off skype. I'd play even if they weren't there. FOSS collaboration works just as well.
- Having a not too demanding girlfiend helps. Look for one so smart it cripples her.
I have also noticed that the more I need help in a situation, the harder it is to ask for it. The degree of difficulty is somehow connected to the degree of need and factors in my tolerance for disappointment.
> Normal introversion is "I just want to be left alone for a few hours", or at most, "I just want to be left alone this weekend".
I think there are a lot of introverts who would disagree. From my reading, introversion/extroversion is a broad spectrum. Many of us prefer not to engage socially much at all, to the point where it's the inverse of what you stated. Once in a while, I like to be around people for a few hours. Or at most a weekend.
Isn't that the (pop?) definition of extrovert and introvert, i.e. some recharge when with others, others when alone?
For me that seems to constantly change, that is, when I spent a lot of time alone, people are exciting and refreshing to me, but if I spend many intensive hours with many people, I sometimes actually physically shiver in relief the second that is over: the moment I walk out the door, close the door behind visitors, or put down the phone, I tremble a bit and feel a wave of relaxation wash over me. I like to think that's a sign that my body and mind were looking forward to some alone time, to process things maybe, instead of me being antisocial or socially inept.. but I'm not sure, could be a bit of both.
Wow this is super weird, I was just thinking this exact same thing about myself, spacing out and mulling it over in front of my computer screen, then I refocused my eyes and this was the next comment and I read it.
Crazy. I'd love to know what the answer is though, for real - what would we be classified as?
I experience things exactly as you said - for me it's about a balance. Sometimes I have been out too long doing whatever with people, hanging out, drinking etc and I want some time to take a break, get a glass of water, and get some work done. And sometimes I have been getting work done for too long and I need to be out and see people. It's a very strong urge on both sides, and the ideal spot is right in the middle.
You are right, it is called being normal. If you look at the Ayurvedic lifestyle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayurveda), then you will understand that our body is always looking for equilibrium. So when something is out of balance (hanging out too long, drinking, partying), you need to bring it back in to balance (going home, resting, having personal time). It's quite a fascinating ideology.
That's understandable. I read this book: http://www.amazon.com/Quiet-Power-Introverts-World-Talking/d... and I felt a lot less guilty after more thoroughly understanding myself and what introversion is (not necessarily the same as misanthropy or social anxiety)
I can relate to this at times. Although I would be perfectly capable of doing working at home, I don't. Instead I sit in public places so that I am not alone. But, I would note, those places are not social. In the library of my university is a large open room, which often has several people in it; however, is a designated quiet area so talking is kept to a minimum. This way I am not alone, but I am left alone. It is the presence of other's I enjoy, not necessarily their attention.
Yeah, same here. I'm sitting at a Barnes & Noble cafe right now, actually. I prefer to be here over being at home, because if I'm alone in my apartment too much in one go, the "lonely" thing really kicks in big-time. But, by the same token, even though I like having people around right now, I very, very much do not want to talk to any of these people, or interact with them in pretty much anyway. Well, OK, other than the two hot baristas serving coffee, especially the redhead, but I digress...
Anyway, the "lonely but want to be left alone" thing really resonates with me. I definitely am a lonely person, as I find it harder and harder to "connect" with people on a deep level as I get older, and I don't have many truly close friends even though most people think of me as highly social, and I have tons and tons of acquaintances. So I know lots of people, am social enough to interact with strangers when I want to, have no problems networking and talking to people at events, etc... but I still mostly don't enjoy being around people, except for a very selective set of people that I deem interesting. Most people bore me very quickly, which is, I suppose, part of my problem. Very few people just seem to be interested in anything genuinely interesting. Outside of hanging out at SplatSpace (local hackerspace), most people strike me as fairly boring.
It also doesn't help that I have strongly held opinions and positions that make me a minority in one sense of another in most social groups (I'm a Libertarian and I'm atheist) so the set of people I'm likely to feel good about deeply engaging in is already pretty small.
I've always been like this as well. I have all sorts of solitary things that I enjoy doing, and that time spent alone recharges me for the other parts of my life. But, when I'm alone too much, I get lonely and that makes me unhappy. But, when I'm trying to maintain a social life I don't get my alone time as much and that makes me unhappy.
Fortunately my wife is very similar, so it's a good fit on that level. It can just be really hard finding a balance while still being a good friend to my friends.
As somebody who has cancer, mentioned in the article and mentioned right next to diabetes (cringe), I look at the people complaining about how human interaction is complicated and life is difficult and I am left speechless.
Fuck people, make an effort. Do it for the dying ones.
That portion of the article is referring to clinical depression, not general loneliness and unhappiness. You just demonstrated his point (that people have a hard time seeing mental conditions like bipolar disorders as actual diseases of the mind and not just bad attitudes) quite nicely.
Pardon me for being frank, but when I pause to imagine having my life taken from me before I was done living it, or being so profoundly unhappy that I would sincerely attempt to kill myself, I can only see both as terrible in their own right. There's no sense in trying to compare the severity of one to the other.
> Fuck people, make an effort. Do it for the dying ones.
I think this is exactly what Stephen was referring to, most people don't understand clinical depression, including yourself, it seems.
At least with something like cancer you can tell for sure whether you will live or not or for how long you will suffer. With clinical depression, even if diagnosed and medicated most people suffer as long as they are alive, and some people will even try to hide for fear of people constantly trying to be in their face with advice and overtly concerns. Similar to what Stephen is facing, which makes me wonder if he trying to hide it...
Life is difficult. People feel their problems are insurmountable; "make an effort" feels like an American cheerleading thing. Sometimes, it is not really about the effort; if it was, you could get rid of therapists and SSRIs and tell people to run around the block a few times.
Also, everyone is dying. Your illness has made you more aware of it; how people accept death is the question.
"Fuck people, make an effort"? What do you think Fry's essay was? Did you read it past the bit you didn't like at the start?
Instead of focusing on the few words of the essay about what affects you, why not focus on the torrent of words about what affects Fry? In other words, 'make an effort'.
This just shows an ignorance of the issues being discussed here. The issue is not that "human interaction is complicated and life is difficult", it's that his feelings - and the feelings of many others - are the result mental illness.
This is a serious health issue - equally as serious as cancer.
I'm 25. I was fit. Never smoked. Eat healthy. Got a PhD. In two months I developed a stage 4 carcinoma. I was told in a routine check-up.
About diagnosis, the hardest part is not when they tell _you_. Well, it is not a walk in the park to get told that good chances are you won't turn 30, but your day is about to get worse. The hardest part is to go home. Tell your gf - the one you where thinking of proposing to - that you're sick - while she says tearing that you look perfectly fine and you need to explain that on the inside you are not.
I told my gf to run away from me when I was diagnosed - I really hope she is fine. I have been told I am a selfish bastard and that decision was not for me to take and many other unpleasant things. I shrug. I went through 2 surgeries, chemo and radio. They have put more that 100 metal stitches in me. I had tubes running in places I never thought it was possible. I have attempted in pain to drink morphine because I had no more needles to inject myself. It's been hard and the way I am, if I'm going to drawn in shit I won't bring down with me the ones I love. I stand by my decision and despite I deeply care about her, I'll have to do without her, because I really believe she deserves better.
Then you need to talk to your (aging) parents. Fix one day. Yeah mum dinner is fine. No she won't come I'll be there alone. She's busy. Don't worry. No reason. --- Fun talk.
The doctor told me this disease would break me down. Therapy is almost as hard as the disease itself. The people next to you really make the difference. A good psychiatrist is also very important.
I am a lot older than you and i had a scare once. That was bad enough but i can only imagine what you must be going through.
Knowing the little i do about how medicine works in my country can i just suggest that you be as assertive as you can be, do your research, ask pertinent questions and show them you're not just a number and keep them on their toes and go elsewhere if you're not satisfied.
I don't think you are selfish, I hope you get through this.
I would very much like to know how you get on, if you have
a blog or something. I'm not religious but 'God Bless' seems to say best what i want to say to you.
If it matters to you (of course it's tangential to the article), I sympathize more with those who face death before 50 due to random events, than those who suffer depression (though it's often equally morally blameless - essentially random accidents of brain chemistry). Depressed folk at least have a realistic hope of treatments that will give them some remaining years in life that they would choose over death.
Good luck w/ your life, and it sounds like you really care about her. Hope you can tell her you love her or whatever at some point without feeling guilty about it harming her (then again, I'm sure she knows).
Depression (specifically Bipolar disorder, since it's the disorder I'm most educated on) is almost certainly as fatal as diabetes and more fatal than many forms of cancer.
1 in 3 sufferers of Bipolar disorder attempt suicide and 1 in 5 eventually die from suicide. Clinical depression is a very fatal disease.
I'm sorry that you have cancer. It's a terrible disease that nearly took a parent from me (it had metastasized before it was caught; my mother was incredibly lucky). I don't intend to trivialize it by any means, but I do think it's important to compare it to something like bipolar disorder.
Malignant cancer will probably either be dealt with or kill you on a time scale of 5-10 years, and although mortality rates vary, your chances of surviving many forms of it, particularly if it's caught before it metastasizes, are decent. Yes, there's a chance that it has gone into remission and might come back, but that chance goes down every year it hasn't happened, to the point where you're generally considered 'out of the woods' if you've been cancer free for more than 5 years. It's in many ways an acute disease: you have it, and it either kills you or you get better. Treatment is acutely unpleasant, but unlikely to kill you and although it can leave you with health concerns (if I remember correctly, it can cause osteoporosis in some people), for the most part you are done with it after less than a few years of chemo+radiation therapy.
Compare that to being diagnosed with bipolar disorder at the age of 20. Life expectancy in the US is almost 80. You don't really get better from bipolar disorder: you can be stable for a long time, but you never get to the point where you're considered to be 'out of the woods' with regards to having more mood episodes. That gives 60 years of dealing with a disease that has a high mortality rate and incredibly unpleasant symptoms; mania sounds great until you realize that it can mean experiencing full blown psychosis: walls melting, seeing people where they aren't levels of crazy. About one in three (25% to 50%) of bipolar patients attempt suicide at least once; one in five will die from suicide. As has been pointed out elsewhere, that is a higher death rate than some cancers, and that is -one of- the ways it can kill you.
The treatments, too, although not as immediately unpleasant as chemotherapy, are honestly potentially worse and cause more chronic concerns. They can cause other chronic problems that can kill you (liver failure, weight gain, weight loss, diabetes, thyroid dysfunction, lithium toxicity/lithium, weight gain, diabetes, associated heart issues/depakote+antipsychotics, PCOS in women/depakote) or be debilitating (dystonia, tardive dyskinesia/antipsychotics). It should be a sign of the severity of some symptoms that it's considered an acceptable trade off to have muscle spasms or uncontrollable facial movements for the rest of your life, sometimes in ways that are debilitating enough that you won't be able to walk. Note that these aren't the disease, these are the side effects that're considered 'less bad' than experiencing the actual symptoms of bipolar disorder. Many of them are permanent and will continue even if the medication that caused them is stopped.
These are some of the -common- serious side effects, not all of the common side effects (there are lots of other common ones that effect quality of life, including hair loss, sexual dysfunction, memory failure, etc.). With regards to rarer side effects, lamictal can (rarely; 1 in 1000 or 1 in 10000) cause your skin to fall off, particularly if your dose is increased too quickly.
Schizophrenia is generally worse than bipolar disorder, and the treatments are often similar (less lithium, more antipsychotics).
Both are chronic conditions that, when they are bad, can keep you from working, finding housing or living a normal life for however much longer you live.
I wouldn't wish cancer or bipolar disorder or schizophrenia on anyone. But I'd probably wish for cancer over severe bipolar disorder or schizophrenia.
You're just missing the point entirely. Fry isn't setting up Cancer and Diabetes and Depression or suicidal thoughts as equals, but rather as equally likely ailments. "Make an effort" is blaming the victim for something usually out of their control which is similar to blaming you for getting cancer. Imagine if you were telling someone with skin cancer or lung cancer that they should "make an effort" to stay out of the sun or quit cigarettes. You're trivializing the disease that's already there.
And you're not the only one. This is a common attitude people have. It's as if people who really feel detached from this life and want to end it do not have that right. Instead, millions of people would rather sit down and debate whether it's ethical for someone to kill themselves or have a physician-assisted suicide. Maybe we all want to believe that everything is a Hollywood-esque setting where you just need to find the right people and love of your life to get everything back together. In reality, mental illness (cyclothymia, in this case) is just as real as every other illness and you can't just "make an effort" to get rid of it. I'm sorry about your illness, but try to not to trivialize other's, it isn't a competition.
I very well understand what you mean. My post came out sounding worse than I intended to and I see everybody jumped the gun and assumed I intended depression=whiny people. This is an answer to everybody.
I didn't.
And of course I did not mean "snap out of it", which is bullshit and we all know that. Nor I intended to say that a disease is worse that the other (being un-PC, it might be, but how do you judge that? by which standards? and isn't it a futile exercise?).
Every human being deserves respect, and that includes respecting their illness.
I've been diagnosed with cyclothymia as well and I had always assumed that this feeling was part of it. I want to be alone but, as the same time, I don't want to be lonely. It's a weird thing and something of a paradox.
I believe it's just how the human mind works. If you spend a lot of time with somebody(even with the loved ones), you start to want to enjoy some time alone. But after an hour(or a day) without them you want the opposite.
I never really realized it until I got married. Going from only child to being married to a big, loud, Italian family was hard. On Thanksgiving and Christmas, usually by 1pm I'm down the street going for a walk.
I have always suffered from this as well. Perhaps it is just a touch of introversion? I have a happy marriage and family but I often need time all to myself or I just get overwhelmed by the constant stimulus of...other people. I don't even necessarily do anything different than I would with my family, though I generally try to work on my own projects or study something interesting.